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Featured Romans 4:5

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Marooncat79, Jul 10, 2020.

  1. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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  2. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Romans 4:4-5
    4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
    5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him...
     
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Here is the NASB version of Romans 4:5
    But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
     
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  4. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    The Word of God Must Come to the soul and The Holy Spirit MUST ENABLE the soul to Understand through CONVICTION of SIN that: "if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God"

    Trust in yourself for 'salvation', or 4:2;

    "For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God."

    Genesis 15:1 "...the word of the LORD came unto Abram..." Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward."

    15:4; "...the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir."

    5 "And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be."

    6 "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness".

    7 "And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it".

    God Counted the One Abraham Believed in, "TO HIM".

    6 "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it
    (that The Word Had Come to Abraham Teaching him he IS NOT able to Work, Taught Abraham the Message of The Gospel, and The Holy Spirit Gave Abraham Faith in Jesus Christ, to Trust and Believe in Faith, as his Savior; 6a again; "he believed in the LORD") and he counted it to him for righteousness".

    God Counted JESUS CHRIST, the One Abraham WAS GIVEN SAVING BELIEF IN, "TO HIM".
     
  5. mailmandan

    mailmandan Active Member

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    Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.
     
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  6. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." ROMANS 10:4
     
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  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Romans 4:5-8
    But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
    just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

    “BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN,
    AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.

    “BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT.”

    Clearly with Abraham the basis of the blessing of forgiveness is through or on the basis of faith in God and His promises. But what of those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, or the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account. Verse 10 of Psalm 32 answers the question, loving devotion surrounds those who trust in the Lord. So our faith is front and center as the basis of blessings.
     
  8. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Either:

    "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." ROMANS 10:4

    or: our faith is front and center as the basis of blessings & is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes
     
  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    False dichotomy, and I suspect an unstudied view of Romans 10:4

    Christ is the fulfillment of the Law, resulting in righteousness for everyone who believes. Once again, our faith, when and if credited by God as righteousness provides the basis of our blessings. Pretty basic really.
     
  10. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    I have seen people fully intend to say that they PAY FOR their 'salvation'.

    Are you INTENDING to say that you Pay For, Buy, & Purchase the Righteousness of Christ
    that God Gives you In Exchange, On Account of, & Credits to you?,

    when He COUNTS:

    "the basis of the blessing of forgiveness is through or on the basis of faith"

    "our faith is front and center as the basis of blessings".

    "our faith, when and if credited by God as righteousness provides the basis of our blessings"
     
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    How many people think Alan believers I am saying we earn our salvation? Or that we purchase the righteousness of Christ?
    How many people see the strawman construct of Alan to deny God credits our faith as righteousness?

    And did you see how Alan "edited" my statement? His edited quote of my view - "the basis of the blessing of forgiveness is through or on the basis of faith." What was my actual statement? "Clearly with Abraham the basis of the blessing of forgiveness is through or on the basis of faith in God and His promises. And to what verse does my view apply? Romans 4:5, But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

    Either you accept Romans 4:5, with God crediting our faith, or you attempt a Calvinist rewrite.
     
  12. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    I asked you what your INTENT was.

    Save your Taddle-Telling for The Judgement Seat of Christ.

    In your statement, "God credits our faith as righteousness", what VALUE are you ASSESSING to the word, "Faith"

    In your statement, "Either you accept Romans 4:5, with God crediting our faith,"
    what VALUE are you ASSESSING to the word, "Faith"?

    "the basis of the blessing of forgiveness is through or on the basis of faith",
    what VALUE are you ASSESSING to the word, "Faith"?

    Is The VALUE you are Giving to the word, "Faith", EQUAL to The Perfect Virgin Born Life of Jesus Christ that He Lived Under The Moral Law of God and, therefore, ABLE to be EXCHANGED, and CREATED, or COUNTED, by God, as The SAME as that RIGHTEOUSNESS of Jesus Christ,

    or,

    Are you saying that the VALUE you ASSESS to The word, "Faith"

    is the same as the Bible Evaluation, which Taught by The Word in Romans 4:5 is that there is No VALUE in Working, the soul Must Be Justified and Enabled to believe, BY GOD in Jesus' RIGHTEOUSNESS....

    BECAUSE: THE ONE NEEDING TO BE SAVED IN THE PASSAGE, ABRAHAM, HAD NO VALUE and was God-less, without God, & "ungodly"?
     
    #12 Alan Gross, Jul 13, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2020
  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Once again Romans 4:5 is rewritten to include the soul must be justified and enabled to believe. Another straight-up denial of Romans 4:5. And note not one single poster objects to this wholesale corruption of the text. Not one.

    Does the verse say or suggest our faith has "value?" Nope! When and if God credits our (worthless filthy rag faith) as righteousness He turns a sows ear into a silk purse. We have been all through this many times, yet the Calvinists keep making the same false arguments to sustain belief in their false doctrines.
     
  14. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    In your statement, that "the soul must be justified and enabled to believe" is a (false) re-writing of Romans 4:5, do you consider the activity of the "ungodly" soul to BECOME "Eternal Divinity"?

    If "faith" has no VALUE to COUNT for Righteousness, do you consider the activity of an "ungodly" soul to BECOME "Eternal Divinity"?

    In your statement, "God credits our faith as righteousness", do you consider the faith of the "ungodly" to EQUAL the ungodly Nature "Deciding to become a Partaker in The Nature of Eternal Divinity"?

    In your statement, "Either you accept Romans 4:5, with God crediting our faith,"
    do you consider the faith of the "ungodly" to EQUAL the ungodly Nature "Deciding to become a Partaker in The Nature of Eternal Divinity"?

    In your statement, "the basis of the blessing of forgiveness is through or on the basis of faith",
    do you consider the faith of the "ungodly" to EQUAL the ungodly Nature "Deciding to become a Partaker in The Nature of Eternal Divinity"?

    In your statement, "When and if God credits our (worthless filthy rag faith) as righteousness", do you consider the faith of the "ungodly" to EQUAL the ungodly Nature "Deciding to become a Partaker in The Nature of Eternal Divinity"?

    ...

    Ephesians 2:8
    For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


    Ephesians 2:5
    Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

    Romans 3:24
    Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

    Ephesians 2:10
    For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    Ephesians 1:19
    And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
     
    #14 Alan Gross, Jul 14, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2020
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  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Endless strawman constructs wasting the opportunity to actually discuss scripture.

    God credits our faith as righteousness.

    Does that mean we earn our salvation? Nope but Calvinists make that charge.
    Does that mean we make ourselves born anew? Nope but Calvinists make that charge.
    Do we put ourselves in Christ? Nope but Calvinists make that charge.

    Behold an endless string of charges and rewrites of scripture revealing the lack of any basis for Calvinism.

    Everyone believing into Him shall not perish but have eternal life. Full Stop
     
  16. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    So, the principal distinctive is, "our".

    "God credits our faith as righteousness".

    "Our" is the only important thing.

    The passage has it as the possessive pronoun, "his".

    "his".

    You say there is no value in, "faith", so it is the, "his", that you are making Divine.

    Salvation is not 'earned', it just isn't relevant.

    There is nothing to be 'saved' from.

    If it is, "his", that is having faith, then "his" is, in turn, WORSHIPPED, by God, and "his" is Given Jesus' Righteousness.

    "his" does not make themself 'born anew', "his" is in no need. "his" is there.

    "his" is on a HIGHER REALM THAN GOD.

    "his" does not put themselves in Christ, "his" is already an addition to The Trice-Holy Triune Godhead, as The Eternal Godhead, plus ONE, "his", the important enough one to tell God "his" is going to Heaven and God The Father Better Make Provision in Giving "his" The Righteousness of Jesus Christ if He doesn't want any trouble.

    In your statement, that "the soul must be justified and enabled to believe" is a (false) re-writing of Romans 4:5, the activity of the "ungodly" soul is ALREADY CO-EQUAL to "Eternal Divinity".

    If "faith" has no VALUE to COUNT for Righteousness, the activity of the "ungodly" soul is ALREADY CO-EQUAL to "Eternal Divinity"?

    In your statement, "God credits our faith as righteousness", the activity of the "ungodly" soul is ALREADY CO-EQUAL to "Eternal Divinity".

    In your statement, "Either you accept Romans 4:5, with God crediting our faith,"
    the activity of the "ungodly" soul is ALREADY CO-EQUAL to "Eternal Divinity".

    In your statement, "the basis of the blessing of forgiveness is through or on the basis of faith",
    the activity of the "ungodly" soul is ALREADY CO-EQUAL to "Eternal Divinity".

    In your statement, "When and if God credits our (worthless filthy rag faith) as righteousness", the activity of the "ungodly" soul is ALREADY CO-EQUAL to "Eternal Divinity".

    Armenians are Worshipped by God
    and The Bible is nothing but One Long Endless Strawman.
    ...

    ROMANS 10:4
    "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."

    Ephesians 2:8
    For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


    Ephesians 2:5
    Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

    Romans 3:24
    Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

    Ephesians 2:10
    For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    Ephesians 1:19
    And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

    are all negated, by, "his", in: Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, "his" faith is accounted for righteousness,

    6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

    "his" is simply Worshipped by God
    and The Bible is nothing but One Long Endless Strawman.



     
    #16 Alan Gross, Jul 15, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2020
  17. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Van,
    I agree that if isolated from other sections of God's word that tell us where faith actually comes from ( John 6:29, Ephesians 2:8-9, Galatians 2:16, Galatians 2:20, Galatians 3:22, Philippians 1:29, Hebrews 12:2 ) the basis of the blessings and forgiveness of God do indeed appear to be the direct result of the believer's faith...

    Therefore, if our faith is the basis for those blessings, then it can be said that the believer's faith is what earns them their standing with God.
    Am I mistaken with this evaluation?
    This is not so, my friend.

    God's word goes on to tell us that our faith as believers in Christ is the evidence of His work in us ( Hebrews 11:1, the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen ), and that it was given to us in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on Him, but to suffer for His sake ( Philippians 1:29 ).
    Yes, He does Van, and I praise Him for reminding us as believers that were it not for His mercy and grace to us as sinners, we would not even have the faith with which to place our trust in Him.
    We would still be His enemies in our hearts and in our minds ( Romans 5:10, Colossians 1:21-22 )...

    For truly, the fruit of the Spirit is faith ( Galatians 5:22-23 ), and without it, there would be no belief on Christ and there would not be the privilege of coming to Him for our every need.
     
    #17 Dave G, Jul 15, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2020
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  18. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I do.

    I see him arriving at the conclusion that if the basis for our forgiveness and blessings from God is the believer's faith, then to me that means that faith is what gained those things for us.
    Are you saying that God does not grant the believer eternal life based on faith?

    If so, then perhaps you might wish to clarify the statements that have led some to believe this, instead of accusing others of mis-construing what you have said.
    In other words, I suggest that you make things very clear so that the casual reader doesn't get the wrong idea from your statements.
    Does anyone else see the connection that this statement is making?

    Van, please correct me if I am in error.
    Are you stating that the believer's faith is what gains them God's favor?

    If not, then I do think that you should perhaps re-write your statements so as not to lead the reader into thinking the same things that both Alan and myself have.
    Faith is never said to be worthless or filthy anywhere in the Bible, Van.

    Only the things that we as men do to gain God's favor are as filthy rags ( Isaiah 64:6 )...
    Our "righteousnesses", or things that we as men think should gain us His favor, are.

    Do you know anyplace that faith in Jesus Christ is said to be filthy or worthless?
    If so, then please post it so that the reader may see it for themselves and then incorporate it into their personal studies.
     
    #18 Dave G, Jul 15, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2020
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  19. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Amen Van.
    God does indeed credit the believer's faith in Christ and His finished work on the cross for them as righteousness in His eyes.

    Question:

    According to Scripture alone ( not a "Calvinist" re-write of it, but the very words on the page ), what else can be said about the believer's faith?
    I'll go ahead and provide some references for the reader to review and to decide for themselves:

    Romans 4:3-9. <---- The believer's faith is counted for righteousness.
    Romans 4:14-16. <---- It must be by faith for it to be of grace in order for the promise to be sure to all the seed. It is the faith "of" Abraham.
    Romans 4:20-25.
    Romans 5:1-5. <---- Justified by faith, by Jesus Christ we have access into this grace by faith.
    Romans 9:30-33.
    Romans 10:3-6.
    Romans 10:16-21. <--- Comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
    Romans 12:1-5. <--- Dealt to every believer ( "every man that is among you" ).
    Galatians 2:16. <---- It is the faith "of" Jesus Christ.
    Galatians 2:20. <--- It is the faith "of" the Son of God.
    Galatians 3:21-29.
    Galatians 5:22. <---- It is a fruit of the Spirit.
    Ephesians 2:8-10. <----- It is the gift of God.
    Philippians 1:29.
    1 Thessalonians 1:2-4.
    1 Thessalonians 1:8.
    2 Thessalonians 1:3.
    2 Thessalonians 1:11.
    2 Thessalonians 3:2. <--- Not all men have it.
    1 Timothy 1:14.
    1 Timothy 1:19.
    Hebrews 11:1. <---- It is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
    Hebrews 11:6. <--- Without it, men cannot please God.
    Hebrews 12:2. <---- Authored ( begun ) and finished ( ended ) by Jesus Christ.

    Each and every one of these passages I've listed has something important to say about the believer's faith...
    Where it comes from, who has it and does not have it, etc.

    Based on what I have listed, I can see only two reasons why the believer's faith is credited as righteousness, Van...
    To make void the works of the Law, and to make the believer aware of His kindness and mercy towards them;
    For that is what it does in my case, when I realize what He did for me and why I believe any of it. :)



    May God bless you, sir.
     
    #19 Dave G, Jul 15, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2020
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  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yet another copy and paste long post of non-germane deflection.
    Note the regurgitatior denied Romans 4:23-24, with nonsense about His faith and ignorance of our faith.
     
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