No I don't believe in sinless perfection, but all sin is a choice and no believer has to sin. If we could be so we would not need a Savior. However I do believe what the bribe says and that is that no one born of God practices sin.
You mentioned Romans 7. That passage is not dealing with a person who is saved.
You are also incorrect about 1John 5:18. It IS about a saved person.
1John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Romans 7, understanding Romans 7:7-25 from chapter 6:16-23
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Romans7man, Nov 5, 2011.
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Second, it is "the body of this death" that he is talking about. I personally do not know of any living Christian that will avoid "death" in "the body" as the principle of indwelling sin will rule and reign over this body until Christ delivers it in the yet future from the grave.
However, until physical death occurs, the child of God is stuck in "the body of this death" (v. 25) and there is NO REDEMPTION of the flesh while in this life as it will surely die. Hence, the law of sin shall continue to dominate the flesh right into the grave and the reborn man shall continue to delight in the law of God. This dichotomy will continue to the grave. However, Romans 8:1-27 provides the PRESENT solution for overcoming the power and presence of indwelling sin in "the body of this death." By faith we must put to death the deeds of the body and live by the power of the Spirit. When we do not then we EXPERIENCE death due to manifest sin which SEPARATES us from fellowship with God. Death is separation and sin separates the believer from fellowship with God and thus we EXPERIENCE death (disease, lack of fellowship, lack of joy, chastening, sorrow, etc.).
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one way bring futility and bondage to the flesh, other way bring freedom and liberty in Christ! -
My objection would be that angels are angels and not human beings made in the image and likeness of God.
They are of a different spiritual nature than we and are created as spirit beings and do not require being born again.
That is probably the reason that scripture indicates they are not redeemable (or so it seems).
Or, to quote a cliche "you are comparing apples and oranges".
HankD -
Romans 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die (spend eternity in hell): but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live (spend eternity with Christ).
No child of God ever lives in the flesh. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Death is more inclusive than physical or eternal death but involves all the TEMPORAL experiences that lead up to physical death (sickness, tribulations, sorrow, separation from the fellowship with God, etc.). Christians are still subject to the TEMPORAL experiences of death. When they walk after the flesh they experience temporary separation (death) from fellowship with God as well as the temporary consequences of sin due to their sins.
When we mortify the deeds of the flesh through the indwelling Spirit we EXPERIENCE the life of God here and now in overcoming the world. -
The Lord never leaves or forsakes His children. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
However, there is TEMPORAL and EXPERIENTIAL separation between God and the saint whenever they sin - sin breaks fellowship which can only be restored by confession of sin.
David repeatedly asked the Lord to "quicken" him and he was not referring to regeneration which was a pre-cross reality (Jn. 3).
Ps 119:37 Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity; and quicken thou me in thy way.
Ps 119:40 Behold, I have longed after thy precepts: quicken me in thy righteousness.
Ps 119:88 Quicken me after thy lovingkindness; so shall I keep the testimony of thy mouth.
Here the terms "quicken" simply means fill me with thy Spirit or empower me by your Spirit to overcome sin and live the way I should.
In the New Testament to be "filled" with the Spirit simply means to act by the power of the Spirit and this is synonymous with "putting on the new man" or "walking in the Spirit" or being led by the Spirit.
You are either at all times living under the leadership of the Spirit or living under the living under the leadership of the flesh, the old man, indwelling sin.
Are you telling us that you ALWAYS follow the leadership of the Spirit? Are you telling us you NEVER have to "put on the new man" but ALWAYS are filled with the Spriit? If not, then what is the only other alternative? -
Death when spoken of in scripture is used two ways. One is the obvious which is the body that dies. The other is a metaphor for ending up in hell. No child of God will ever be separated from God (die).
John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
There is NO "TEMPORAL and EXPERIENTIAL separation between God and the saint" when we sin.
Being led of the spirit is what happens in every believer or they are not believers.
Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Being filled with the spirit is something we do. The passage actually says be being filled. In other words our filling is always on going and never ending but it is up to us.
I am just telling you what the bible says. You are trying to tell me what men say they experience and then make false claims about what the experience really is. I believe the bible.
God never leaves or forsakes a believer. Fellowship never is broken. Sometimes it is not as pleasant as other times, but it is never broken. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
You fail to understand that to be "filled" and to "walk" and to "put on" are synonymous in scripture for being LED by the Sprit.
If a Christian is ALWAYS "filled" thus always walking in the Spirit and thus always following the leadreship of the Spirit then why would Paul repeatedly command Christians to "put off" the old man and to "put on" the new man? Why would he command them to be "filled"?
Do you think you are FILLED with the spirit WHEN you sin? Do you think you are being LED by the Spirit WHEN you sin? Do you think WHEN you sin you need to "put off the old man" and "put on the new man"?
Do you think WHEN you sin you are "walking" in fellowship with God?
I realize that the child of God shall never die in the sense of spiritual separation from God but I am referring to experiential consciousness of God's presence and fellowship when sin enters your life? In other words, can sin rob you of the JOY of the Lord? Can sin rob you of the BLESSINGS of the Lord? Does sin in any way affect your fellowship and walk with God? -
And NO to "be "filled" and to "walk" and to "put on" are synonymous in scripture for being LED by the Sprit" is not all the same. Every believer is led by the spirit. Any person not being led is not saved.
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
That passage is present tense, continual action. Once it starts it never ends. Being filled is a command we have to be done by us.
And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
That is a command for us to do.
"Do you think you are FILLED with the spirit WHEN you sin?"
No if we sin we are not being filled with the Spirit.
"Do you think you are being LED by the Spirit WHEN you sin?"
It is true the Spirit does not lead us into sin, but prior to the sin He is leading us not to do it and at the point of the sin He leads us to turn from it so the leading never stops. All believers are always being led by the Spirit. Any person who is not is not saved.
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
" Do you think WHEN you sin you need to "put off the old man" and "put on the new man"?"
The old man has already been crucified for the believer. Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.
When Paul deals with the new man he is dealing with ever sinning at all, not the practice of sin since no believer can practice sin. Paul is saying we are to live with NO SIN! We are to live like Jesus.
"Do you think WHEN you sin you are "walking" in fellowship with God?"
Our fellowship with the Lord is not determined on if we sin or not. Our fellowship depends on who we are related to. A sin does not break fellowship. It changes it from peace and joy to conviction and in extremes death and taken home to be with Him but the fellowship never ends. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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freeatlast said: ↑Not according to the scriptures. No one once born again practices sin.Click to expand...
MB -
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The Biblicist said: ↑Paul is simply declaring that all who are presently following the leadership of the Spirit are manifest children of God. He is neither denying or asserting that children of God always follow the leadership of the Spirit as the Spirit of God never leads any child of God to sin or to be in sin for any period of time. All children of God do righteousness but that does not assert or deny that children of God at times do unrighteousness also. You are makiing an assertion to be also a denial of the reverse and that text does not say that.
So is "put on the new man" and "put off the old man." So is "walk in the Spirit" and not "after the flesh." So is follow the leadership of the Spirit!
freeatlast said: ↑It is true the Spirit does not lead us into sin, but prior to the sin He is leading us not to do it and at the point of the sin He leads us to turn from it so the leading never stops. All believers are always being led by the Spirit. Any person who is not is not saved.
However, that is not what Romans 8:14 deals with. He is talking about the manifest evidence of children of God in regard to righteousness. John says the same thing in regard to righteousness but that does not mean the child of God can do no unrighteousness and neither does this text mean that.
You are confusing texts with each other. We are POSITIONALLY dead to sin but we are not PRACTICALLY or PERSONALLY dead to sin because you do sin. When you do sin you must "put off the old man" or else those words have no practical appllication to saved people at all. Why tell saved people to do this if that has already been done and there is no chance the will ever need to do that???????
That is exactly what your position will llogically ead you to - The doctrine of SINLESS PERFECTIONISM. However, that is not true and neither is your theory true.
You are confusing "fellowship" with "relationship" with God. Sin can never change our relationship to God as children because sin does not unborn us. However, sin does PRACTICALLY effects our "fellowship" with God and to deny it is either to deny what every true Christian knows by experience.Click to expand...Click to expand... -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporterfreeatlast said: ↑Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.Click to expand...
Your problem remains the same. When, not if, you sin, does that require you to confess it and TURN from it???? Is not that TURNING mean that you have not followed the leadership of the Spirit and that you were not filled with the Spirit when committing that sin????
Does not that require you to "put off the old man" or do you attribute that sin to the new man and to the Spirit of God?
Again, the commands to "put on" and "put off" are given to Christians not to lost people. Your position makes those commands meaningless as you claim that was done at the point of salvation. Pray tell, why did Paul waste his breath COMMANDING Christians to do these things as he does use the imperative mode or mode of command making this equally a responsibility to do as being filled with Spirit?????? -
The Biblicist said: ↑Are you claiming this teaches living above sin? If not, then it does not help you at all because it then includes not merely the ability to sin but the fact that all true children of God do sin (I Jn. 1:8-10).
????Click to expand...
Look at the verse.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
It does not say if we say we do not sin, but we have no sin, have never sinned.
The last part is a description of an unbeliever. The part about have no sin is past present and future. These people are saying they have never sinned. So John then tells them if they will confess their sin God will forgive them.
V 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Notice it says He will cleans them from all unrighteousness. That has already been done in a believer. This is about the Gnostics who were lost.
So to fully understand what I am saying and the passage is saying in 2:4 click on this link;
http://www.gerald285.com/web_media/BirthmarksofaBeliever.32.mp3 -
freeatlast said: ↑First 1Jhon 1:8 is not speaking about a Christian. It is speaking about a lost person. The book was written to combat the teachings of the Gnostics. One of their teachings was they had never sinned.
Look at the verse.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
It does not say if we say we do not sin, but we have no sin, have never sinned.
The last part is a description of an unbeliever. The part about have no sin is past present and future. These people are saying they have never sinned. So John then tells them if they will confess their sin God will forgive them.
V 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Notice it says He will cleans them from all unrighteousness. That has already been done in a believer. This is about the Gnostics who were lost.
So to fully understand what I am saying and the passage is saying in 2:4 click on this link;
http://www.gerald285.com/web_media/BirthmarksofaBeliever.32.mp3Click to expand...
Every reputable commentary would support John addrssing Christians as the ones to confess sins to God for forgiveness of their sins commited, and to be restoredto fellowship with the father...
Which authors support your view in this? -
JesusFan said: ↑Apostle John is talking to Christians in 1 John, as the terms that he uses to call them by were always used to describe Christians, not unsaved peoples!
Every reputable commentary would support John addrssing Christians as the ones to confess sins to God for forgiveness of their sins commited, and to be restoredto fellowship with the father...
Which authors support your view in this?Click to expand... -
freeatlast said: ↑It is true that the letter is to Christians, but John is dealing with the false teachings of the Gnostics. In 1:9 he is appealing to those Gnostics to confess that they are sinners and get cleansed of all unrighteousness (saved) 1:8 and 9 is not for those who believe. Our sins are already forgiven. I am not seeking to get any authors to support my view and since I do not read what they write I don't know what thye say, but If they claim those passages are directed to Christians then they are in error.Click to expand...
NOT the Gnostics that might be among them!
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