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Featured Romans Chapter 1

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by ryarn, Mar 18, 2019.

  1. ryarn

    ryarn Member
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    Does Romans Chapter 1 show that everyone has known GOD and therefore has no excuse ? That there sinful nature just separate's them, by blinding them to GOD for there rejection of the truth,
    Since we have in our conscience the law of GOD we are capable of making a choice (free will) to do right and wrong and to react when the Gospel is preached to except or reject HIM.
     
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  2. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

    Ppl wanna focus on vs 20 with a laser but don’t take the surrounding vss into context. First off, it says in vs 18 that God’s wrath is revealed. Who is it revealed unto? Those who suppress His truth in their unrighteousness. They have taken all He has created and turned it over to some idol as being the reason why it, His creation, exists. Look at all the idols the enemies of Israel had. Look at all the ppl in the world who serve other idols. They have taken all He has shown them via natural revelation and attributed it to an idol, or idols. They are held accountable for doing this, seeing they have the Law of God written on their hearts.[Romans 2:15]
     
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  3. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    @ryarn , Romans 1:18-32 is about unbelief and its consequences. There is a sense in which God is known to all men through general revelation (vs. 20-21). However, this knowledge is not sufficient for salvation because it is not faith-knowledge in the Lord Jesus Christ. No man can stand before God and deny that He exists. He may not worship God. He may never have repented of his sins and placed his faith in Christ. Those things notwithstanding, he cannot claim ignorance of God. The latter part of Romans 1 displays the consequences of not acknowledging God. Those consequences are more than just what happens to one individual. Systemic godlessness leads to societal breakdown and every vice known to man. Free will? It really is not the point of this chapter.
     
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  4. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    General Revelation vs. Special Revelation

    Yes, based on creation, everyone knows there is a God. Nobody can honestly deny this. They may not know the specifics of their condition or what Christ did, but they should know to be seeking after God.
     
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  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Those non-Jews [Gentiles] of Romans 2:13-15 are JEWS INWARDLY [Romans 2:29], their hearts circumcised with the work of the law written upon it, born from Jerusalem above [Galatians 4:26], now built up a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God through Jesus Christ [1 Peter 2:5].

    Get the motif?
     
    #5 kyredneck, Mar 18, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2019
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  6. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    But do they seek after God? :Thumbsup
     
  7. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    There are none that seek after God. ;) (Romans 3:10)
     
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  8. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    (Deu 4:29) But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.


    (1Ch 16:11) Seek the LORD and his strength, seek his face continually.


    (1Ch 16:12) Remember his marvelous works that he hath done, his wonders, and the judgments of his mouth;


    (1Ch 22:19) Now set your heart and your soul to seek the LORD your God; arise therefore, and build ye the sanctuary of the LORD God, to bring the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and the holy vessels of God, into the house that is to be built to the name of the LORD.


    (1Ch 28:9) And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off forever.


    (2Ch 11:16) And after them out of all the tribes of Israel such as set their hearts to seek the LORD God of Israel came to Jerusalem, to sacrifice unto the LORD God of their fathers.


    (2Ch 12:14) And he did evil, because he prepared not his heart to seek the LORD.



    (2Ch 15:2) And he went out to meet Asa, and said unto him, Hear ye me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin; The LORD is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you.


    (2Ch 15:12) And they entered into a covenant to seek the LORD God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul;
    (2Ch 15:13) That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.


    (2Ch 30:18) For a multitude of the people, even many of Ephraim, and Manasseh, Issachar, and Zebulun, had not cleansed themselves, yet did they eat the passover otherwise than it was written. But Hezekiah prayed for them, saying, The good LORD pardon every one
    (2Ch 30:19) That prepareth his heart to seek God, the LORD God of his fathers, though he be not cleansed according to the purification of the sanctuary.


    (Ezr 7:10) For Ezra had prepared his heart to seek the law of the LORD, and to do it, and to teach in Israel statutes and judgments.


    (Psa 14:2) The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.



    (Psa 22:26) The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live forever.


    (Psa 27:4) One thing have I desired of the LORD, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the LORD, and to inquire in his temple.


    (Psa 27:8) When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, LORD, will I seek.


    (Psa 34:10) The young lions do lack, and suffer hunger: but they that seek the LORD shall not want any good thing.


    (Psa 40:16) Let all those that seek thee rejoice and be glad in thee: let such as love thy salvation say continually, The LORD be magnified.


    (Psa 69:6) Let not them that wait on thee, O Lord GOD of hosts, be ashamed for my sake: let not those that seek thee be confounded for my sake, O God of Israel.


    (Psa 83:16) Fill their faces with shame; that they may seek thy name, O LORD.


    (Psa 105:3) Glory ye in his holy name: let the heart of them rejoice that seek the LORD.


    (Psa 105:4) Seek the LORD, and his strength: seek his face evermore.


    (Pro 28:5) Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.



    (Isa 55:6) Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:


    (Hos 10:12) Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the LORD, till he come and rain righteousness upon you.


    (Amo 5:4) For thus saith the LORD unto the house of Israel, Seek ye me, and ye shall live:


    (Amo 5:6) Seek the LORD, and ye shall live; lest he break out like fire in the house of Joseph, and devour it, and there be none to quench it in Bethel.


    (Amo 5:14) Seek good, and not evil, that ye may live: and so the LORD, the God of hosts, shall be with you, as ye have spoken.



    (Zep 2:3) Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD's anger.



    (Act 15:17) That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.


    (Act 17:27) That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
     
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  9. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    No. 'But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned' (1 Corinthians 2:14).
    That does not mean that unsaved people may not be very interested in religion or 'spirituality;' they very often are. But they will not seek the true and living God (Romans 1:21-23), not because God prevents them from doing so, but because they have sinful, unbelieving hearts (John 3:19).
     
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  10. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Benjamin,

    The first thing I notice in most of the passages you have listed, is that they are addressed to God's covenant nation of Israel, who made an agreement with Him to keep His Law and to follow Him.
    He sent them prophets to remind them of their promise and to plead with them to correct their ways.
    His sending prophets was never in the eternal sense, but in the earthly sense to remind of the covenant that they agreed to keep...which included earthly blessings for obedience, and earthly cursings for disobedience.

    I also noticed hat you've quoted Psalms 14:2, which is actually 180 degrees out from where I see you using the rest of those passages...
    Here is the context:

    "The fool hath said in his heart, [There is] no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, [there is] none that doeth good.
    2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, [and] seek God.
    3 They are all gone aside, they are [all] together become filthy: [there is] none that doeth good, no, not one."
    ( Psalms 14:1-3 ).

    It is repeated in Romans 3:10-18.
    There is no one who naturally seeks after God.

    God wants men to seek Him, but they will not in and of themselves.


    May God bless you and yours, sir.
     
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  11. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    I agree and am a little confused by the long posts of Scripture with zero commentary to explain the position.
     
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  12. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    That’s his M.O.
     
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  13. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    Weeelllll, it seems my posting some of the many verses that puts a different light on the subject than the Determinists' lone out of context favorite proof-text which they try to force into their total inability doctrines has got all their panties in knot. No matter that I made no comment whatsoever, no, note the mere presence of those scriptures alone sets them off folks.:Whistling

    One even replies how I didn’t comment after he just did exactly that when he gave this aforementioned lone proof-text without comment which is what inspired me to do the same with a much better example of the whole of scripture on the subject.

    Another disingenuously says this is my M.O. when he knows such is not true, in fact I can’t remember a time I have challenged him in a debate that he didn’t run. In fact, I would dare him to show one other post where I presented scripture and no comment which demonstrates that is my M.O. to prove he is not being dishonest to try to come up with some meaningless rhetoric.

    Then there’s the Cosmic Consciousness Superiorly Enlightened faction :) – who foolishly tries to bring up Israel in disregard of Progressive Revelation - no need to go there either as he doesn’t believe in human logic anyway being he is above it. :Cautious

    Nah, ;) I don’t have time to engage with all your Determinist nonsense boys but while I’m here I’ll post you a little out of my notes about your failed context lone verse you wish to trump the whole Word of God on concerning seeking:



    None that seek after God


    We are blind in the sense we do not know the truth, but as scripture teaches, "the truth will set you free." And as Paul explains, "how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard?" IN that sense, they are blind. They can't come to the wedding banquet unless someone invites them first. But, your view goes beyond this 'blindness' and beyond scripture to insist that even when one is confronted by the powerful Holy Spirit wrought Gospel appeal for reconciliation, they remain blind to that revelation and unable to respond. That is NEVER taught in scripture. You use proof texts such as the ones quoted below, but notice what they all have in common! They are talking about the condition of lost man WITHOUT THE POWER OF THE GOSPEL. For example...

    Quote:
    Scripture is clear. There are NONE that understand. None that seek after God.

    Is this talking about none understanding God's special revelation of the gospel and their inability to attain righteousness by Grace through faith in Christ? Of course not. Read on in the chapter and verse 21 shifts from the righteousness thought to be attained by Law through works to the righteousness attained by Grace through faith. You wrongly apply versus 10ff as proof texts against man's ability to attain righteousness by grace through faith, when clearly he is speaking of their inability to attain righteousness by works of the law.

    Whosoever will may call upon the name of the Lord and be saved. (Romans 10:13) Jesus knocks on the door of our heart. We do not seek after Him out to knock on the door of His heart. Again, man does not seek Jesus, so Jesus must seek man. Jesus states: “For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.” (Luke 19:10)


    Again, they would dare to cherry picking out one lone verse and then try to proof-text their Determinist’ system with that single verse?! ....exposed!!
     
  14. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Now do Ezekiel 36:24-32.

    You know, the scripture where Calvinists claim God has to change your heart before you can believe. The scripture that is clearly written by a prophet to God's covenant nation of Israel, who made an agreement with Him to keep His Law and to follow Him.
     
  15. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    So, the millions and millions of people that attend Christian churches on Sunday, who take communion, who get baptized (or have their infants baptized), make the signs of the cross, say prayers to "Our Heavenly Father", affirm the trinity, the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, these people are not seeking the true and living God?
     
  16. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    This would be laughable if it were not so pathetically wrong.

    The Scripture didn't set anyone off, the misuse of it did.

    Yes that is what I said. Why? Because my Scripture didn't need an explanation to make my point. Yours however, was taken out of context and half of your verses actually argue for my point.

    That is not what we said at all. That is not the Calvinist position. They do respond, negatively. Every time. Without the prompting of the Spirit to make a positive decision. That is CLEARLY and PLAINLY in Scripture.

    You prove my point. God seeks after us and prompts us to accept Christ.
     
  17. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Benjamin,
    This is my last reply to you on this forum.

    I'd like you to know that I harbor no personal animosity towards, you, and I never will.
    But you and I see totally different things when we read the Scriptures, and our view of God is also totally different.

    Over the past several months I have labored to show you what I believe and why, and admittedly I have felt frustrated and even a bit angry at what you continue to tenaciously hold to.
    I've tried Scripture, I've tried to show you the ramifications of what you believe, who historically believes and teaches it, and what it leads to, in the "theological" sense.

    The truth is, I'm a slow learner.
    My efforts have only made it obvious to me what I should have been doing all along....presenting Scripture and waiting to see what affect it would have.
    After that, letting things lie as they were should have been in my best interests...instead, I've tried to persuade you over and over, thinking that my efforts would make a difference...they haven't.

    What I've seen in God's word is not something that most people who profess Christ see or understand, and I don't blame them.
    I now know that it is because they really cannot see it.
    I heard an old pastor once say, "It takes God's Spirit to show them"...and to me, he was right.
    That isn't meant to be a jab, that's meant to give you a little perspective from the "other side of the fence". ;)
    I truly believe that what I see, the Lord has painstakingly shown me, not men.

    What many call "Calvinism" is not meant to be pleasing, and it sure as Hell exists, isn't meant to tickle the ears, either...
    TULIP is not man-made, it's found right in the pages of God's word.
    And it's something that most men will automatically disagree with, just on principle.

    It's taken me many years to see all of it, and it didn't come to me overnight.
    But one thing I've never done in all those years, is to rely on commentaries or the teachings of men and their institutions... no matter how much I was tempted to do so.
    I've always stuck strictly to God's words.


    With all the above stated, I truly wish you well, and my hope is that God will bless you and yours with every good thing that He has for you.
    May He make His face to shine upon you, and may you always go to Him, and Him alone, with your troubles.



    His grace is sufficient for each and every one of us.:)
     
    #17 Dave G, Mar 19, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
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  18. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    That is not what I mean at all. But "unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God' (John 3:3). How many of the people you describe are born again neither you nor I can possibly know.
     
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  19. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    24 For I will take you from among the nations, and gather you out of all the countries, and will bring you into your own land.
    25 And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
    26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
    27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep mine ordinances, and do them.
    28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
    29 And I will save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the grain, and will multiply it, and lay no famine upon you.
    30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye may receive no more the reproach of famine among the nations.
    31 Then shall ye remember your evil ways, and your doings that were not good; and ye shall loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
    32 Nor for your sake do I this, saith the Lord Jehovah, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel. Ezek 36

    Yea, that's EXACTLY what the text implies. If God hadn't acted first there would be no "loathing yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations".

    You don't see that? Remove the blinders and read real slow. Look for the order contained in the text. Nothing would be happening if God hadn't first taken action.

    What's your point here? That this passage pertains only to a small group of people with a particular DNA? The Israel of God [Galatians 6:15-16; Philippians 3:3] is comprised of Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman, etc., Christ is all, and in all.
     
    #19 kyredneck, Mar 19, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
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  20. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    The ones born again yes, the ones not, maybe seeking a God, or the benefits of God.
     
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