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Featured Romans Chapter 1

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by ryarn, Mar 18, 2019.

  1. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I know the position, David...intimately.;)
    I could also write an essay on this, which many people here know that I love to write essays and have done so before. :Sneaky
    I'll try to keep it as short as possible, but I feel that there are details that really need to be stated.

    I grew up in "Fundamental Baptist" circles and was subject to their teachings for well over 25 years, from the age of 12 ( when I first believed on Christ during the preaching of God's word ) until I finally left them in 2007 at the age of 41.
    The position is, that any passage that shows God speaking to men and making an appeal to their will...or commanding them in any way to seek Him, is automatically attached to the belief that man can actually do the things that God is commanding him to do.

    In other words, God would not command a man to repent, for example, unless he was both capable and willing to do so.
    Truth based on inference is therefore taken above what is based on declaration...at least in some cases.

    Here's an example:

    " as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
    11 there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
    12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."
    ( Romans 3:10-12 )

    To me, this clearly describes man's heart condition before Him.
    It is a clear-cut declaration...not an inference.
    But many don't see this, or it gets dismissed in favor of other Scriptures which seem more important to them.
    Anything that seems to show that a person can seek God and become righteous by doing it, takes center stage.

    This is where the teaching of "Prevenient Grace" comes in.
    It is reasoned that since God commands repentance, and since God would not hold anyone responsible to do something that was not within their power to do, then He must, by necessity, have made it possible for man to do so.

    The problem is, Scripture never teaches "Prevenient Grace" and never has...it's inferred from certain passages, but not outright declared in any.


    As I see it, this is what is at the heart of any discussion of "Calvinism" versus "Arminianism"...
    The belief that God would not condemn someone for something they were unable to do.
    To seek Him and to be reconciled to Him.



    ...and plenty of men are willing to do whatever it takes to get out of going to Hell.:Cautious
    They are willing to listen to just about anything, from anyone that has "the solution".


    To me, the "free will gospel" is the perfect solution, and it's perfectly reasonable.
    It presents a god that loves everyone ( John 3:16 ), is not willing that any man perish ( 2 Peter 3:9 ), wants all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth ( 1 Timothy 2:4 ) and has sent His Son to die for their sins ( 1 John 2:2 ).

    All one need do is believe 1 Corinthians 15:1-7 and they are "in".
    Believe and confess, and "really mean it" ( Romans 10:9-10 ).
    The Holy Spirit then seals them ( Ephesians 1:13, many think that this verses shows regeneration, or being born again, and that it occurs after belief ) until the day of redemption, and God keeps them by His own power ( 1 Peter 1:5 ).

    Anything in Scripture that travels outside of these passages ( and others of this type ) is either dismissed, or conditioned in favor of an outcome that supports the idea that any man can believe, and all they have to do is either "accept Christ" or reject Him.

    Election gets conditioned in favor of man's will and God foreseeing a person's faith, and salvation is turned into a reward instead of a gift.
    But these ramifications are not seriously considered, because this "gospel" is also very convincing.
    It is believed by literally millions.

    God choosing His children from the foundation of the world and casting those that are not His children, into well-deserved Hell fire for their unforgiven sins?
    Very few believe that.
    Yet, that is what Scripture, understood correctly and by the power of the Holy Ghost, actually teaches.



    Best wishes to you, sir.:)
     
    #21 Dave G, Mar 19, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
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  2. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    My point is that the Calvinist cries to opponents "you're taking that text out of context" when it suits their fancy but they turn around and quote scripture out of context to bolster their own points!

    Ezekiel 36 is clearly, clearly written to Israel. It is clearly, clearly a prophecy. Yes, it pertains to Israel. No, it's not about salvation through faith in Christ.

    “Therefore prophesy concerning the land of Israel" - ver. 6
    "I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel", ver. 10
    "My people Israel..." ver. 12
    “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord God:" ver. 22
    "For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land." ver. 24

    What is God going to do when he changes the heart of stone to a heart of flesh and puts a new spirit in the Israelites?

    "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers."


    You see any Christians being promised land that was given to their fathers anywhere in the Bible? No.
     
  3. Rockson

    Rockson Active Member

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    So how do you explain that a baby just being born and NEVER, EVER, EVER had a space of time where they have done this, suppressed the truth. So they're innocent of any of this and God just gave them a reprobate mind minutes after coming out of the womb? As usual Calvinism doesn't add up.
     
  4. Rockson

    Rockson Active Member

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    You miss the mark in how you put this all together. You talk about what sinful man can claim or not claim of which the answer would determine if man should be held accountable. For instance let's go at this from the start here and not the end.

    Let's say God didn't give this "general revelation" that God exists would man have been accountable then? Well I'm sure you would say no he wouldn't have for "being without excuse" would have no meaning of anything. It has to mean something.

    So you'd say he WOULD HAVE excuse if he didn't have natural revelation for if God didn't give it to him that would be out of his control. I mean how do you hold someone accountable for something out of their control? But you refuse to take that logical principle to the next step which would be IF IT TOOK a thing you call God's irresistible grace to have them follow God than why do you marginalize the same reality and truth that neither would that be in their control as well.

    The text is clear. God is fair. If one is held accountable for not repenting after seeing natural revelation of things which they'd even have to have to hold them accountable than the other thing would have to be true as well.....that they indeed could have repented.

    But you Calvinists want to hold that there is no excuse for their not repenting even though they can't repent which would likewise be out of their control. (if it took irresistible grace) So any way one might want to slice it God was saying they could have repented based on natural revelation for being without excuse would have again NO MEANING. If you're going to say they'd be WITH EXCUSE for not having something needed for the first thing than you need to be consistent and acknowledge they would be WITH EXCUSE for not having the second thing necessary which would be irresistible grace which likewise would be out of their control if they didn't have it.

    Both things would be just as true as the other if irresistible grace was necessary and there's nothing you can say to deny it. So what are Calvinists really doing? They're trying to put a round peg in a square hole when it comes to Rom 1 and trying to claim it fits. It most certainly doesn't.
     
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  5. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I think you misunderstand the 'Calvinist' position.
    Men and women are not physically unable to repent and come to Christ, they are spiritually and morally unable to do so because they have wicked unbelieving hearts, and for that they are accountable.

    I am unable to walk on the ceiling. This is a physical failing, not a moral one. If I could do so, I would. Therefore one might say that God would be unjust to punish me for not walking on the ceiling.
    Someone who, say, is a compulsive gambler or wife-beater, might say, "I can't stop; it's who I am!" But in that case, that person would be blame-worthy because if he would, he could give up those actions, but he is unable to override the impulses of his wicked heart.

    There are many precious promises in the Bible assuring people that God will receive them if they repent and seek God: e.g. Deuteronomy 4:29: Isaiah 55:1; Matthew 11:28; John 6:37; Revelation 22:17. No one will truly come to Christ only to be told, "I'm sorry; the grace has run out. Christ's blood doesn't stretch as far as you," or, "You're not one of the elect; heaven's not for the likes of you!"

    But the fact is that people will not come to Christ of there own accord. "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil" (John 3:19).

    Therefore God has taken the initiative and has, from eternity, set His love upon a vast crowd of undeserving sinners, and given them to Christ to redeem and the Holy Spirit to seal for the day of Redemption (Matthew 1:21; 11:25; John 6:39; 10:27-29; 17:2; Ephesians 1:3-14. Compare Romans 9:15-16 with Romans 10:11-13).
     
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  6. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Nobody is denying that God's holds men accountable to seek him. Nobody is denying that his people (e.g. Ezra, David) are able to seek him. What is being denied by Paul is that any person still in their lost condition will seek him.

     
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  7. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    What's clearly, clearly clear is that you're bound to the letter that kills (the message) instead of the spirit that gives life (to the message).

    Is this clearly, clearly, only physical DNA Israel after the flesh?:

    10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass that, in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Hosea 1

    How about this? Is this clearly, clearly, only physical DNA Israel after the flesh?:

    1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith Jehovah.
    2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thy habitations; spare not: lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes.
    3 For thou shalt spread aboard on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall possess the nations, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.
    4 Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth; and the reproach of thy widowhood shalt thou remember no more.
    5 For thy Maker is thy husband; Jehovah of hosts is his name: and the Holy One of Israel is thy Redeemer; the God of the whole earth shall he be called Isaiah 54

    I suggest you browse the middle column of your OT for references to how the writers of the NT quoted them. You might not be so bound to the letter that kills as you are now.
     
    #27 kyredneck, Mar 20, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2019
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  8. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    He simply dealt with this passage. However, Romans 1:18-3:9 has one goal in mind and that is the expressed conclusion that Paul makes in Romans 3:9. He has developed his argument to prove this conclusion from Romans 1:18-3:8. Hence, this is the overall context for this passage.

    So, what is Paul trying to prove from this passage? Answer: That both Jews and Gentiles are all equally sinners by nature and by choice and they will always repress truth no matter how it is revealed to them (in nature, in conscience, in special revelation) and therefore without excuse before God and therefore God's judgement is just - Rom. 3:9

    Now, how does he develop this argument for that conclusion?

    1:18-32 - God's wrath is just because God reveals himself through creation ("to" them) and through conscience ("in" them) and man willfully chooses to pervert and repudiate that revelation and thus God gives them progressively over to their own lusts and its consequences which they know deserves judgement (v. 32).

    2:1-15 - God will judge all men according to just judgement according to the light they have been given whether by special revelation (law) or revelation by conscience and the standard of that judgement will be according to the gospel of Christ as the righteousness of Christ will be the final standard to true righteousness versus hypocrisy.

    2:16-3:8 - Jews are no better than Gentiles but sin against special revelation given them

    3:9-23 - All fallen man kind can never be justified before God by the law (Mosaic, law of conscience) but the law merely manifests righteousness and the knowledge of sin and all men have come short of those revelations because all men are sinners by nature.

    His point is that the fallen nature will never seek God but will always repress truth no matter its source simply because that is the nature of fallen man as all are sinners by nature and by choice. Only the power of God through the gospel is able to save sinners.
     
    #28 The Biblicist, Mar 20, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2019
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  9. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    Exactly, the next logical principle that follows after accepting that one does not have an excuse is accepting that God's ways are judgement in truth.

    Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

    Romans 1 is clearly a warning that all men should take to heart. The truth of ability to know and understand is revealed and this truth should not be held in unrighteousness, denied with false claims of being invisible (unknowable according to Calvinist/Predestinarian Total Inability doctrines) wherein God said these things are clearly seen, they are understood and that none of the “things that are made” will have an excuse.

    Romans 1:18-22 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; (19) Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. (20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    The Word goes on to explain that even some of those who knew God were not thankful for having been created. It then follows that because creation came with no other option than to be under God’s judgment that in vanity some would use their imagination and claim they or anyone else had no choice in the matter whatsoever which would logically give them an excuse and deny true judgment but of course such “wisdom” is foolish and false.

    (21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (22) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

    Again, why is it important that none have an excuse? Because all of God's ways being judgment would not be in truth if the things that were made had no ability of choice either way and had an excuse:

    Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
     
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  10. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    I'm not bringing DNA into the argument whatsoever. I'm simply saying a plain reading of Ezekiel 36 shows it is addressed to the nation of Israel. It is a prophecy. It is not a doctrinal statement about personal salvation.
     
  11. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    "'Tis ordinarily said, that the Jews were a typical people, the whole divine economy toward them is doctrinal and instructive to us, not immediately or literally, but by way of Anagogy" - Henry Hammond
    The New and True Exodus....In Jesus....Central Gospel Truth

    Which Israel?:

    28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh:
    29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Ro 2
    6 But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel: Ro 9
     
  12. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Since Ezekiel was written to the nation of Israel about 500 years before Christ was born, I'm going to say the nation of Israel, which is comprised of Jews.
     
  13. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    It was there choice to do so is why they did it
    MB
     
  14. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    Nah, I think Rockson understands Calvinist logic and the accountability issue in Romans 1 just fine. We see it all the time, goes like this:

    Calvinist: “God determined all things that ever happen, He is Sovereign."

    Free Will: "Did God determine the things Jeffrey Dahmer did?"

    Calvinist: "No, Jeffrey Dahmer did what he did because of his nature."

    Free Will: "Who determined Jeffrey Dahmer’s nature?"

    Calvinist: "God did, He determines all things, He is Sovereign."

    If Calvinists are interested in coming to logically “true” conclusions it seems that they are very selective about recognizing which arguments can be understood as coming to a valid logical true conclusion and those that don’t.

    On the other hand, the Hyper or Extreme Calvinists apparently recognizes the difficulties with a compatibilistic view being that human free will (*volition) cannot logically be both true and not true. The Extreme Calvinist then resorts to “Hard Determinism” which seems more intellectually honest as far as logic goes, but in denying free will they unwittingly fall directly into Theological Fatalism as per the classical arguments brought forth in the “Problem of Evil” (P.O.E.). IOWs they have forfeited maintaining God as Truth, His Omnibenevolence and apparently don’t seem to mind doing so. (This is/should be a very troubling and grave concern for any theist that is worth his/her oats!)
     
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  15. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    The difference between determinism, fatalism, and Calvinism.

    Determinism: When a non-believer says the future is set in stone and nothing we do can change it.

    Fatalism:
    When an atheist says the future is set in stone and nothing we do can change it.

    Calvinism:
    When a believer says the future is set in stone and nothing we do can change it.
     
  16. Rockson

    Rockson Active Member

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    Your response makes no sense at all. Just answer the question if one would be WITH EXCUSE if natural revelation hadn't been given to them than why would they likewise not be WITH EXCUSE for another thing that would be needed to give them to make salvation possible? I like analogies but try another one please. Sorry but the one you provided doesn't hold water.
     
  17. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Well, perhaps he does, but you certainly don't.
    What we don't do is follow fallen human logic. 'The foolishness of God is wiser than men.'
    The Bible teaches that not a sparrow falls to the ground apart from the will of the Father (Matthew 10:29). It also teaches (Acts of the Apostles 4:27-28) that the most wicked act ever perpetrated was according to God's 'hand and purpose,' yet the perpetrators were held responsible (Luke 22:22; John 19:11). Also the deeds of rulers are always directed according to God's will (Proverbs 21:1). Yet we are also told that God is not the Author of evil.but that men and women commit evil acts because of their evil hearts (James 1:13-15).
    Now you can say with Doctor Spock, "That is illogical, Captain," but it is divine logic. God has determined all things that will be, yet men are still responsible for their actions. If you have a problem with that, take it up with God. For me, the God I worship is in total charge of His Universe, not one that wrings his hands impotently while his creation spirals out of his control.
     
  18. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    See my post #37.
     
  19. Rockson

    Rockson Active Member

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    Nope! Interesting points that can be addressed but they have NOTHING to do with what I was talking about. Go back to my post #24 and seek to do better to answer the question. Thanks.
     
  20. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Scripture please?. To prove people are unable to respond to the gospel. This statement makes the gospel bad news instead of good news
    I disagree entirely. Men are able to change if they want to bad enough. Men have changed them selves from those things you listed.

    There is no scriptural truth here in this statement. I would like it very much if you could prove you are one of the elect

    This is why we preach the gospel doing this shines that light on them any way. Some will hear and some refuse to hear yet every one can hear. The Bible says so.
    Act 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
    Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

    Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    These verses say we are saved by grace through faith. In other words No faith, no grace.

    That vast crowd is the whole world
    Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
     
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