Paul explains his ownself. It is you just fail to see it.
1 Tim 1:
12: And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
13: Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
14: And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
15: This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
16: Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
You should look where Paul does list the sins he was guilty of, where you can't.
BBob,
Salvation and sin
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by MB, Mar 6, 2008.
Page 2 of 16
-
-
For the most part I have withdrawn from posting here. I do however still pop in to read once in a while, and the thread that led to this one I found interesting, and felt led to ask this question, then I will let others discuss.
How do you reconcile this verse, where Jesus tells us that someone can break the commandments but will still end up in heaven? It does seem like there can be a loss of rewards ("called least"), for our actions, but in the "kingdom of heaven" (saved) non the less.
-
Call me wrong if you wish. But I wouldn't bet my house on his Christianity. -
-
BBob,
Gotta go to a funeral. I will be back if I am still allowed on here. Bye. -
Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
This makes verse 19 very clear.
Our righteousness must exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees.
The scribes and Pharisees had self-righteousness, which the Lord despised.
The Lord wants us to be clothed in his righteousness. Without the righteousness of Christ no man can enter into heaven. It is the righteousness of Christ, our standing before him, that also compels us to go and do the good that he would have us to do. -
Ephesians 3:7-8 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
--No mention in this passage of his persecution of the church of God. He simply says that he is the least of all saints. He was very humble. He walked close to God. He was very aware of his own sinfulness.
Paul considered himself a great sinner because of his very close walk with God. If there is any who doesn't feel that sense of sinfulness in themselves it is because they are not walking close to God. Scripture bears this truth out.
Isaiah was a very Godly man:
Isaiah 6:3-5 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
When Isaiah saw a vision of God in his glory, he immediately fell to the ground and realized how much of a sinner he was. "Woe is me!...I am a man of unclean (sinful) lips" He realized his own great sinfulness in the presence of a holy God. Every great man of God does. -
My own research on Obama's Christianity:
Is he really a Christian? One can claim to be a Christian all they want.
James said:
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
-
-
BBob, -
To All:
This is somewhat related. Very few are aware of the unusual view of sin that is taken by Bob Wilkin of the Grace Evangelical Society (GES). Most members of the GES share this view.
The following is from the GES website, under the “How Can I Be Saved?” link on the left column on the home page:
This view of sin is why Wilkin and Zane Hodges believe a lost man does not have to know, understand or believe he is a sinner, nor who Jesus is and what He did to provide salvation, but can still be born again
LM -
-
Charles Stanley also preaches this type of tripe. Repentance is required for salvation(a change of mind), yet they reinterpret this idea through our modern abstract culture. The idea that someone can simply the say "Jesus", and be saved, is absolutely foreign to the Gospels. Repent AND trust to be saved.
Personally, I am borderline LS. -
Paul says: Sin dwells in me.
He says: the things that I do, I don't want to do. (that's sin Bob! Paul admits it. It may even be evil heinous crimes, he doesn't say what sin it is).
He says: the things that I don't want to do, that I do. (That is also sin Bob. Probably great sin).
Romans 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Romans 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Have you discarded your flesh Bob? Do you now live in Heaven, only in your spirit? Or do you still have a fleshly body like the rest of us? Paul says that "in me, that is in my flesh, dwells no good thing. Are you better than Paul? -
Why are we trying to rewrite what Paul says and means?
Paul still struggled with sin. Why are some trying to extricate Paul from sin?
After writing a few epistles and forging out a lot of theology, Paul still hadn't arrive (Phil 3:12-14).
DHK, I'm with you on this one. -
Ps 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
Ps 1:2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
Ps 1:3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
Ps 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
Ps 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. -
Absolutely I feel like Paul. I have a desire to be perfect, but the flesh is in the way. Mind you, I am as Paul also and do not
commit the deadly sins. You or no one else on here, including rbell, TC or anyone can show me where Paul after He was
converted committed sins unto death. He had a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to buffet him and so do I. I pray
daily because of sin and lately because of trying to debate with some on here who do not understand scripture. Show me, any
of you, where Paul committed a sin unto death after converted. If Paul taught all of us not to commit those sins and then did
them himself, he would be the biggest hypocrit that ever lived. The same is true with me and all of you. While teaching
others not to commit adultery and then commit it ourselves is completely hypocrital.
Paul felt the exceeding sinfulness of his sin. He classifies himself as the chief or first or foremost of all sinners. When you
stop to look at Paul prior to his conversion you don't see a drunk, or a fornicator. You see a religious man, with strict
adherence to the law. Phil. 3:4-6 enumerates some of his character (as an unregenerate man) and frankly he would be called
a "good man" according to the standards of his day. (see also Acts 26:4-5) Concerning his morals, he was a straight arrow.
But the Lord Jesus Christ changed his life. After realizing what he had done to the Christians, he hangs his head and
remembers the persecution, injury and destruction he placed upon men and women of the faith. He then calls himself "chief"
of all the sinners in the world that Christ came to die for
You think for one minute that Paul taught all this and was guilty himself, after conversion. You do err badly to call Paul such
an hypocrit, and if you are saying that Paul committed such sins as adultery, when he said he was glad he was a single man
so he did not follow after the things of the flesh. After conversion, Paul lived and worked, yes worked for the Lord until he
died. I am trying to follow in his footsteps, that he so Godly laid down for us to walk. He said I would that ye be followers of
me, as I also follow Christ. Awake and arise to righteous, enough of the nonsense, live a good and righteneous life for the
Lord and teach others to do the same. It seems some spend most of their time on here trying to make sin just a bump in the
road, I tell you now, if you teach men that they can get away with adultery, you will answer before God. You shall give an
account for every word that comes out of your mouth.
This is what Paul taught, do you believe or not, will you follow or go the way of man. There are cults that have used the
scripture to set up all kinds of religeon, but it is not the true gospel, but the fables of man.
1 Corth 6
9: Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor
idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10: Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11: And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord
Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
12: All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under
the power of any.
13: Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication,
but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.
14: And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.
15: Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them
the members of an harlot? God forbid.
I say the same as Apostle Paul, God forbid. If Paul only had of known what men were going to use that passage for and not
be able to see the true meaning. It takes the Spirit to understand the scriptures. To proclaim that Paul was a great sinner
of sins unto death and try to tie them to adultery, and all sins known unto mankind, such as molesting children is an
abomination. I will defend the truth until I die.
Can you truthfully say, that because I teach that a man must live a righteous life, that I am doing a wrong. God help us to
stand on your word as long as we have a breath left in our bodies.
BBob, -
For clarification's sake, and to help us in discussion, plese list for us the "sins unto death."
-
Titus 2:
11: For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12: Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13: Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14: Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15: These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
Hbr 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Eccl: 12:
13: Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14: For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
If this is the whole duty of man, then God Himself provided the list in your heart. Just follow them.
If God created man to keep His commandments, then He will take care of providing man the list. I could go down town and ask a drunk, and he could give me the list, I am sure if he was of sound mind. God taught him.
BBob, make it as sure as you can young man, you will only pass this way but once.
:praying: -
Paul admitted to sin. Paul admitted to sin that dwells in him. The tense is in the present. It dwells. It continues to dwell. It is there. It needs to be dealt with.
Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Romans 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Paul admitted many times in sinning after the flesh.
Perhaps the sins that he committed were sins unto death; we don't know because the Bible doesn't say. Actually we don't know because Bob won't post the list of sins unto death for us. :rolleyes:
Paul said: It is sin that dwells in me.
Paul said: In my flesh dwells no good thing.
Paul admitted that he sinned; that he was a sinner.
Paul admitted to these things, but you don't. Are you better than Paul?
Page 2 of 16