1) Please tell me which came first, your election or God's salvation plan?
2) I do not disagree that God purchased the church with His own Blood. I have said in the past the people are part of the elect after they are redeemed through salvation and not before.
3) 2 Thess. 2:13 - I am used to this verse being quoted to prove election and predestination but the word "chosen" here is not a common word for election or predestination. Furthermore, we see in vs10 that unbelievers perish because they "receive not the love of the truth, that they might be saved". In vs12 we see that "all might be damned who believe not the truth"; while the other group are called "brethern" because of their belief of the truth. Notice the goal of the choosing. It is not of the unsaved (unregenerate) to become believers, but of the "brethern beloved" to the end result... (vs14) "to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ". Notice also, my dear brethern, that the choosing comes after the calling of the Gospel.
4) Eph. 1:4-5 = I have already discussed this verse with Jarthur001 but we can do it again. We must first see that this verse deals with the saved because the scripture says "us" and not "some". He has chosen us (we who are believers) 'that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love'. It is not that some should be saved and some lost because the subject of my soul is never mentioned. The object of this salvation is that sometime in the future (when we are conformed to His image) we will stand, covered by His blood, holy and blameless before Christ. So because of this (vs11) the believer is predestinated to receive an inheritance which has been purchased, obtained, and paid for.
Dr. Morgan, "May God deliver us from taking so great, so stupendous and sublime and far-reaching a vision of the wisdom which transcends our finite theory, in order to formulate a doctrine that God has chosen a few people to be saved and left the rest to be damned. That is an unwarranted deduction."
5) Rom. 9:10-13 = I discussed this in my last post. Dispensationally, Jacob was loved and Esau was hated. There is no reference to the individuals as such. Therefore, since God so loved the world, decedents from both may be saved who will.
6) Rom 9:18 = I didn't read that God told Moses that he had chosen Pharaoh to go to Hell. I read that God did harden his heart AFTER Moses went to him and said, "Let My people go", and Pharaoh said, "Who is God that that I should obey Him?". That when the hardening began.
7)Rom 9:19-24 = God does not make men in order to destroy them. God ordains no man to eternal death. He 'will have all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth'; yet Christ comes to His own, but His own received Him not, yet we see weeping when He says, 'Ye will not come unto Me, that you might have life'. Does not this endurance imply opportunity to repent? If He would have selected the Jews to be saved in Heaven (everyone of them) and rejected every other nation, then the objection would have been sustained but it had a different purpose. The election of the Jewish nation looked to the salvation of the Jews and the Gentiles that received the message of God.
Saved at birth? Part 2
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Dale-c, Jul 3, 2007.
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Or, if they are saved in the womb because they are the elect, why is faith not necessary when Scripture says it is in order to be saved? -
My statement was for adults. I meant that a person dying in unbelief is not saved, is not one of the elect.
From God's view, all who are in the Book of Life will be saved.
With God, they are as good as being saved already but the application of God's atonement still must come in real time to the person. -
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righteousdude2 Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
This Has Been Interesting
Pastor Paul -
Hello PK
YOU SAID...
YOU SAID..
Now this choice had to do with being ruler. One may ask does this apply to faith?
Notice this in Job as I ad words to point out key words....
The ramsom is not something we find, but is what God found in the death of Christ on the cross, which makes us OWNED by Christ.
YOU SAID...
YOU SAID...
1) Who did the choosing?
2) When was the choosing done?
If we were to use your meaning as shown above, election is not needed. In other words, if we are saved and then we are chosen, what would be the meaning? These blessings come to all of the believers, and on your understanding of election, we could remove the choice and change not one thing.
"US" are the saints....found in verse one.
YOU SAID...
YOU SAID...
YOU SAID...
YOU SAID...
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Dale-c said:My whole point was to deny the hyper calvinist view that salvation can come without belief.Click to expand...
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I have no idea on the topic of infants. The Bible is silent on that as far as I can see.Click to expand...
If Christ's blood is applied to those who are spiritually dead by faith, how can it be silent if you believe mankind is created spiritually dead? -
Faith is given so that we may believe.Click to expand...
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Is it really silent?Click to expand...
PLease tell me if you know otherwise. -
webdog said:...if faith is "given" so that we may believe, who is doing the believing, God or us? If faith is not "given", who is accountable for unbelief, God or us?Click to expand...
We can't make the faith that will rescue us from sin and sins we have done. Only God can create this faith in us. The only faith that counts is that which is 'poured in' to us by the Spirit. Faith does not spring forth from our inmost self, no matter how much spirituality we practice or how many loving deeds we do. It comes from outside of us and then lodges itself inside of us.
Romans 8:4 (Amplified Bible)
4So that the righteous and just requirement of the Law might be fully met in us who live and move not in the ways of the flesh but in the ways of the Spirit [our lives governed not by the standards and according to the dictates of the flesh, but controlled by the Holy Spirit].
Philippians 2:13 (Amplified Bible)
13[Not in your own strength] for it is God Who is all the while [a]effectually at work in you [energizing and creating in you the power and desire], both to will and to work for His good pleasure and satisfaction and delight.
2 Corinthians 3:5 (Amplified Bible)
5Not that we are fit (qualified and sufficient in ability) of ourselves to form personal judgments or to claim or count anything as coming from us, but our power and ability and sufficiency are from God.
Ephesians 2:8 (Amplified Bible)
8For it is by free grace (God's unmerited favor) that you are saved ([a]delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God;Click to expand...
Faith is not agreeing with your mind, "Yes, that is true." Many professing Christians believe mentally that the Bible is the Word of God, but this type of faith does not change the way they live. This faith is not a faith that can save.
James 2:14 (Amplified Bible)
14What is the use (profit), my brethren, for anyone to profess to have faith if he has no [good] works [to show for it]? Can [such] faith save [his soul]?Click to expand...
ames 2:19 (Amplified Bible)
19You believe that God is one; you do well. So do the demons believe and shudder [in terror and horror such as [a]make a man's hair stand on end and contract the surface of his skin]Click to expand...
3For by the grace (unmerited favor of God) given to me I warn everyone among you not to estimate and think of himself more highly than he ought [not to have an exaggerated opinion of his own importance], but to rate his ability with sober judgment, each according to the degree of faith apportioned by God to him.Click to expand... -
Dale-c said:As far as I have seen.
PLease tell me if you know otherwise.Click to expand... -
pinoybaptist Active MemberSite SupporterDale-c said:I have no idea on the topic of infants. The Bible is silent on that as far as I can see.
My statement was for adults. I meant that a person dying in unbelief is not saved, is not one of the elect.Click to expand...
Before the Bible ever came into possession of a human being, wouldn't you say that literally the whole world died in unbelief and therefore unsaved ?
Before there were missionaries who "won souls to Jesus Christ" wouldn't it be true that the whole world died in unbelief and therefore unsaved ?
Before there was Abraham, wouldn't you say the whole world died in unbelief, and therefore unsaved ?
Before there was Israel, wouldn't you say that the whole world died in unbelief, and therefore unsaved ?
Therefore the entire point of God's sovereign election of His people, and His coming in the form of a slave and dying a painful death on the cross in their behalf, becomes moot and academic unless they believe and have faith.
I reiterate what I said: I believe that the eternal salvation of all of God's elect is NOT TIED up in anyway, shape, or form to whether they believe or not. That is what makes grace pristine and pure. It is 100% of God. This is why none can ever boast: of his work, of his faith, of his determination, of his theology, of his doctrine.
We will all stand head bowed and shamefaced before our Creator and Savior.
DaleC said:From God's view, all who are in the Book of Life will be saved.
With God, they are as good as being saved already but the application of God's atonement still must come in real time to the person.Click to expand...
What were their states ?
In the Soon-to-be-saved-but-unatoned-for-Compartment ?
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