I'd be careful using that Scripture as proof text. We don't get the same revelations, of course, so I would be careful to apply it to ourselves, not interpret it to ourselves. I am not saying you have, I am just making a point we may be aware of, but others may not, for cautions sake.
Scholars vs. Laity
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Amy.G, Dec 4, 2010.
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Here is an incident of some proof-texting this verse. One could come along, and say, "see, Paul received revelations, and so do I, what, you don't believe the Bible? God is always giving me revelations."
I hope that helps clear up what I mean. -
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I started the thread because of a couple of comments that were made about most Calvinists being scholars and they discovered the Doctrine of Grace because they were scholars and had learned to understand scripture better than the laity who are uneducated. It was also said that they had more devotion to the scriptures and "cared" more about the study of them.
Those statements are arrogant. My pastor is very educated and I have the highest respect for him and love him. But he would NEVER lord it over me or anyone else that he "knows" more. He teaches us to go to scriptures for ourselves and test what he says against them. And even though he is far more educated than most of us, there are things the we may disagree on. -
Do you really believe all pastors should hold a master's degree?
I think you are missing the point of where the arrogance appears. It's not in the amount of knowledge a scholar holds, but the amount of wisdom. I know of many, people who hold degrees in religion, Bible, pastoral counseling or whatever, but who lack in wisdom. That is to say, they hold positions of "authority" but their theology is lacking greatly and they deny or explain away the clear principals of the Word.
Therefore, when Havensdad says we should accept the position of Calvinism just because he says so based on the amount of knowledge he holds, it becomes arrogance instead of instruction.
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Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Wat Bees a scola? Be dat a minista oh a Passa? Do he hasa go to da big school? do he be edumicated at Bobby Jones o Liberty? Do he be needin to node election and utter doctraine? Wat be his crumadentials? I be axin!
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Amy.G said: ↑Yes Steven, that is it exactly.
I started the thread because of a couple of comments that were made about most Calvinists being scholars and they discovered the Doctrine of Grace because they were scholars and had learned to understand scripture better than the laity who are uneducated. It was also said that they had more devotion to the scriptures and "cared" more about the study of them.
Those statements are arrogant. My pastor is very educated and I have the highest respect for him and love him. But he would NEVER lord it over me or anyone else that he "knows" more. He teaches us to go to scriptures for ourselves and test what he says against them. And even though he is far more educated than most of us, there are things the we may disagree on.Click to expand... -
menageriekeeper said: ↑On this you and I agree completely. However I must ask you a question:
Do you really believe all pastors should hold a master's degree?Click to expand...
I think you are missing the point of where the arrogance appears. It's not in the amount of knowledge a scholar holds, but the amount of wisdom. I know of many, people who hold degrees in religion, Bible, pastoral counseling or whatever, but who lack in wisdom. That is to say, they hold positions of "authority" but their theology is lacking greatly and they deny or explain away the clear principals of the Word.Click to expand...
This thread is not about wisdom- but knowledge. No one is arguing that scholars have more wisdom than laity. They may tend to but that is another subject. This one is about knowledge.
Therefore, when Havensdad says we should accept the position of Calvinism just because he says so based on the amount of knowledge he holds, it becomes arrogance instead of instruction.
Click to expand...
He said it is telling- that means it is a piece of evidence that is not necessarily conclusive.
He did not say that it was a fact that since scholars tend to be more Calvinistic that that proves that Calvinism is right.
When you say that he said that, you are misrepresenting him.
Excellent! May I add this quote to my sig line?Click to expand...Click to expand... -
preacher4truth said: ↑We are not arrogant to think that Amy, we are humbled to believe and trust in God to open our eyes to his Word. Psalm 119:18.Click to expand...
God doesn't impart knowledge via osmosis- you have to study.
The more you study the more knowledge God imparts.
If you go the full gambit and spend thousands of dollars and thousands of hours getting a degree then you can expect that generally you are going to get more knowledge from God than those who don't envest so much of themselves in the pursuit of this knowledge.
Scholars do not recieve more, or less, either. God resists the proud. To be fair, there can be this pride among the laity too, but it is definitely rampant among the "scholars."Click to expand...
One thing I have learned in my pursuit of it is that I did not know as much as I thought I did. I guarantee if you ask anyone else on baptistboard who has pursued higher education they will tell you the same.
I shutter to think of the baseless arrogance I once possessed before education.
I think many, many uneducated possess that same arrogance.
I don't see Scholars listed as those given to the church to edify the church. He did give the teachers though. Some will look at Ephesians 4 and say see, that word can be interpreted "doctor" and I am one. But the thing is, look at the attitude in that, as typically it means "I am way above and beyond you" instead of having the attitude of being a servant, as did our Lord Jesus Christ.Click to expand...
It is strange how people argue against the fact that higher education makes one significantly more knowledgeable about the subject which is his proficiency and yet no one goes to a garbage man for heart surgery.
This is not a condemnation of those with deeress, only to those who have the haughty attitude to go with it.Click to expand...
Are you this condemning of laymen who do not pursue higher education and yet slip their thumbs under their lapels and say that "Just because you went to college doesn't mean you know more about the Bible than ME- young punk!"
In other words are you this judgmental against arrogant laymen?
That the teachers become arrogant and are definitely, in this context of the OP, lording over others, or better, attempting to, is pure arrogance. It looks rather foolish as I read excerpts from the OP where this is drawn from, and witnessed how not only said person addressed a lady, but how arrogant he came across in general. He's an elitist and in his mind superior. Who would want a guy like this teaching the poor little saints the Word, when they know how he really feels about them?Click to expand...
I've seen many laity put the "scholars" to shame in church. Why? Because God can give insight into Scripture above and beyond a paid education. In general, they have more faith in God than most of these scholars emanate. Most of the saints I have seen who are very good teachers of the word have a one over on scholars; they spend much time in prayer, and you can tell.
Let's not forget something here, it is God through His Holy Spirit who leads and guides into all truth, and it is He who empowers our words to give illumination to us to share with others. If it were otherwise, any person could simply learn the languages, cultures, hermenuetics, and every level of expositional preaching, and in turn, dispense truth, and still not be a believer. The truth they dispense may even come with as much power as it does through the scholars who hold arrogant contempt for the laity! Lifeless. Where does being a believer and love come into the equation, scholar? Too educated for the love part? If you are, then there is yet another thing amiss with you as a person, and I would ask why are you even ministering to people?
We should all ask that question. "Why am I doing what I am doing?"
I've read this nonsense elsewhere. It is almost becoming a fad to some that they think only they, who have the languages, should be interpreting Scriptures. You also see it on forums, just in general, that anyone person who attempts to interpret Scripture, in a forum, has subjected himself to ridicule, because no one can interpret Scripture but "I" and "I" alone. So the attacks begin. It is the same attitude the "scholars" have. There have been, I am sure, horrible misinterpretations posted in forums, but that doesn't justify the attitude. Sometimes it's because it is from a zealous babe in Christ. If however someone who is a minister uses subjectivity versus God's Word, to make a truth, or reject one, or to base decisions upon, especially when the Scriptures plainly condemn such, then let the attack begin. That is plain heresy.
Anyhow, it's no wonder the Holy Spirit said through Paul "knowledge makes arrogant." This was to the church he said this.
:praying:
- BlessingsClick to expand... -
I think it is arrogant for Amy, or anyone else to put themselves on par with someone who has a ThD. She may be right on occasioin and the other be wrong. But to think she knows as much as he does- well I think that is arrogant.Click to expand...
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ashleysdad said: ↑I absolutely agree with you. God does reveal truth to all Christians, but let me ask you this. Christian A has spent many years in seminary, they have studied the original languages and are well versed in them. They have spent years learning about the history and customs in the time frame that scripture was written in. For instance they know from their study just what was being referred to when Isaiah said "all of our righteousness is as filthy rags". They have learned how to use solid hermenutics in studying the Bible. Then there is Christian B, they have the exact same amount of the Holy Spirit. They have read Gods word faithfully everyday and never miss their time with God. They have not had the chance to go on to a seminary type of learning environment but God has shown them amazing things from His Word. Their lives are a sterling example of a true, sold out child of God. Who has the more knowledge? Not who is the better Christian or who has more of the Holy Spirit but who has more knowledge and can honestly say that they know more about things concerning the Bible?Click to expand...
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I came to the Baptist board to read, learn, exchange ideas, and yes debate I have found myself not debating things that I should, mainly because of personal attacks that I see happening everywhere. This does not do anything to edify the Kingdom. I made a vow to God my words would be to his glory, honor and edification.
I maintain you can speak with authority but still in love. If I cannot back up my point of view with scripture then I’ll remain silent, study and pray until I have an answer. I have not been to seminary as many of you have. But I fully believe God has given me revelations of his word. I also fully believe he rewards his servants that are diligently seek his truth through prayer and studying. He has rewarded me greatly as I seek His truth. When we debate let us keep in mind what is written in I Peter:
3:8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:
3:9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
3:10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
3:11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.
A servant in Christ
Jeff -
I think it is arrogant for me- an educated pastor- to think that I can farm like a member of my church who has received a bachelors in farming and farmed for sixty years.Click to expand...
Those who are taught in the seminary are only as knowledgeable and correct as their teachers. If the teacher teaches error, that is what the student will learn. A great example of this is Ephesians 2:8.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
A person taught by a Calvinist will interpret the word "that" that I highlighted to refer to "faith", while most non-Calvinists say it refers to the word "saved".
Now, they both can't be correct, and the difference is major.
If you have been taught that the word "that" in this verse refers to the word "faith" in this verse, it is very difficult for that person to interpret this verse any other way, and likewise, if a person has been taught that the word "that" refers to the word "saved" that person will find it difficult to interpret the verse any other way. Your mind can actually be conditioned to perceive only one interpretation whether true or false. This is especially true of education, because we all tend to trust teachers, believeing them to be far more knowledgeable than ourselves or laymen. But many teachers teach error.
In my own case, I have been saved over 45 years and have read this verse many times. From the first time that I ever read this verse I naturally interpreted "that" to refer to the word "saved". And every Christian I knew in all these years interpreted this verse the same exact way. It was not until recently when I ran into Calvinists on this forum did I encounter persons who interpret this verse differently.
I still firmly believe that the word "that" in this verse refers to "saved", and believe those who believe it to refer to "faith" do so only because they have been taught and conditioned to do so. Of course, a Calvinist will believe the exact opposite.
But the point is this, education is only as accurate and truthful as those who are teaching. If you are studying under someone who is teaching error, that is exactly what you will learn. In this case, education is not an advantage but a detriment. -
webdog said: ↑This is relative, particularly when there are many different flavors of seminaries, denominations, beliefs, etc. I know Roman Catholic priests who hold doctorates. In the scope of truth, does that mean anything?Click to expand...
But obviously that's what we mean. -
webdog said: ↑I think it's arrogant to make such a comment, Luke, considering you have no idea what she knows.Click to expand...
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Old Union Brother said: ↑I came to the Baptist board to read, learn, exchange ideas, and yes debate I have found myself not debating things that I should, mainly because of personal attacks that I see happening everywhere. This does not do anything to edify the Kingdom. I made a vow to God my words would be to his glory, honor and edification.
I maintain you can speak with authority but still in love. If I cannot back up my point of view with scripture then I’ll remain silent, study and pray until I have an answer. I have not been to seminary as many of you have. But I fully believe God has given me revelations of his word. I also fully believe he rewards his servants that are diligently seek his truth through prayer and studying. He has rewarded me greatly as I seek His truth. When we debate let us keep in mind what is written in I Peter:
3:8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:
3:9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
3:10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
3:11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.
A servant in Christ
JeffClick to expand... -
Luke2427 said: ↑She has no theological degree- that's enough, unless she's a genius. If she claims to be a genius and can back that up or declare that she does have some formal theological training- I will take it back.Click to expand...
Prov 26:12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.
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