Why don't you admit the truth? Man-up! Admit that you were wrong for once.
Here is the post that bothers you so much. Why not address it?
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2175306&postcount=131
And the more direct link:
http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0279.htm
You need to read the whole thing.
It is obvious that Spurgeon preached a different message than you and the other Calvinists on this board. You won't admit it, neither will you comment on this message of his.
Sermons On Sovereignty CHS
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Rippon, Apr 17, 2006.
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
My doctrinal sentiments did at thee time somewhat hamper me. I boldly avow that I am unchanged as to the doctrines I have preached; I preach Calvinism as high, as stern, and as sound as ever; but I do feel, and always did feel an anxiety to invite sinners to Christ.
and here;
But I glory in the avowal that I preach Christ even to insensible sinners—that I would say even to the dry bones of the valley,
as Ezekiel did, "Ye dry bones live!" doing it as an act of faith; not faith in the power of those that hear to obey the command,
but faith in the power of God who gives the command to give strength also to those addressed, that they may be constrained to obey it.
yes DHK...good sermon..he speaks of Divine enablement right here! Surely you can see this now???
not faith in the power of those that hear to obey the command....
this is the exact opposite of what you have been trying to teach us isn't it?
Why would you pick this sermon then?
Oh wait...it uses the word whosoever will......but we have told you many times...that phrase is not problematic and does not chamge the teaching at all....
Keep looking for more CHS...we love that Brother!
"Whosoever understandeth let him come," but "whosoever will," and I do not doubt but what there are many souls who when they first come to Christ have very little understanding of the way of salvation, and very little knowledge of the way in which he saves; but they come to Christ, the Holy Ghost makes them willing to come, and so they are saved.
yes indeed...the irresistible grace and effectual call described! good stuff DHK...Divine Enablement. -
Now why don't you address my posts 57,59 and 60 which entirely dismantles some of your false claims? -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Going through this old thread, it is interesting to note the objections of the old posters were not scripturally based , but emotional in nature.
The same objections of many today. The truth and teaching remainsas an anchor for the soul according to His promise. -
I know that Spurgeon believed in Limited Atonement insofar as Christ died to redeem the elect (only the elect). I've read many of his sermons, but when he speaks of Atonement he speaks solely of those who are being redeemed (which is fine, no problems here). Are there any sermons where Spurgeon restricts the means of salvation to only the elect?
The reason I ask is that some define limited atonement in accordance with the Synod of Dort (which could be interpreted as a universal means but limited redemption or limited means) and some hold to a more strict view in accordance with the acronym "TULIP." I have not found evidence Spurgeon believed the latter (although that certainly does not mean he didn't). Many of his sermons seem to indicate that he believed limited redemption but also held a once more common view effectual salvation hinged on the choosing of the Father rather than the death of the Son. -
but I do feel, and always did feel an anxiety to invite sinners to Christ.
You don't believe anyone should be "invited" to "come" to Christ, but that God should "do the work of regeneration" on the person first, otherwise he cannot be saved. Obviously, that is not what Spurgeon believed. He invited, not the regenerated, but the unregenerated, the goats, the unsaved, to be saved. His invitation was to all, not simply to sheep.
This is the point of my quoting this porting of his sermon.
I remember Kyr posting that the Great Commission was Jesus commanding Peter to feed His sheep, and not "Go into all the world and preach the gospel..."
It seems like many here believe that the gospel is only to the elect. That is not what Spurgeon believed. His emphasis was "whosoever will." And his invitation was not to the elect, but to all unsaved.
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
DHK
DHK,
I speak with people about the gospel everyday. Today I spoke with a waitress in central Georgia, gave her the information for Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Jackson Georgia....pastor Brandon Smith
. In God's providence that church is 5 miles from her home. What comes of it is between her and God.
I opened up my laptop in between responding to you and the fine posts by Rippon...so I pulled upsermonaudio for her and wrote down the information for her. She was thankful.
When you say I would never agree with Spurgeons statement you are wrong.
if that is what you think you would be shocked at what I do when the Lord gives me any opportunity. if you can arrange it...you could ride along and see for yourself.
Every person I see I view as a Divine appointment. I pray for opportunities to speak about the gospel. God provides abundantly.
The places I am in...do not contain many professed believers truckstops have a unique clientele.
[
Your statement is wrong. God indeed saves sinners. Sinners are unregenerate, until God regenerates them.
I have always posted that regeneration happens at the same time as conversion. Jesus taught the Spirit moves in the unseen realm, like the wind.
I do what I am responsible to do....God does the saving, or condemning.
When we speak truth to any person...we are a savor of life unto life, or death unto death.
Every cal on here agrees with Spurgeon ..most of his quotes and sermons.
I have found a few times where I believe Spurgeon missed the truth.
He knew much more than I ever will, but he also is only a man.
We can differ and interact.
Even though we differ we can still interact. Kyred does not try and lecture me or twist my words. he speaks man to man, states his case and I believe I have done the same with him....Biblicist also ...we went at each other on one or two topics....mostly agree, but some sharp disagreement.
You asked why I 'mocked" you ? I think yesterday....I fyou look carefully...I have asked you not to think for me, or twist what I did say, into what you want it to be....and yet you persist, saying what you do.
Sometimes you do interact, but before the post is over you resort back to your M.O.....I either have to stop interacting with you, or defend against the attack. The results are not pretty. I expose what you do. I would rather you do not and interact without the attacking, and frankly...lying, or false witness which is one of the ten Commandments....
Others have asked you to change...consider it for your own sake.
Are you saying we have not repeated...we do not know who the elect are? so we preach to all men...sinners.
find me one...I will listen:laugh: -
DHK, just stop it. You have been taken to task and proven wrong at every turn, CHS was a five point Calvinist. Everything he preached that these Brothers have posted on here is consistent with DoG. It`s just your inability to understand what it was CHS preached that causes the confusion,
Those aren`t windmills you`re seeing, Don Q.... -
That being said, can you tell me why just as many non-Cals as Cals claim Spurgeon as their authority? Its more of an observation. The very fact that non-Cals do quote Spurgeon, and do it often demonstrate that much of his work is not as Calvinistic as Cals would like to think. -
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But all of the above contradicts your earlier remarks when you agreed with Archangel's explanation of John 3:16.
Your insistence that his interpretation was the correct interpretation and the KJV and other translations were wrong was astounding. Why?
Because he negates the "whosoever believes in him has eternal life," as an appeal to the world of the unsaved, what you say you do, and turns it to a statement about the elect instead.
That gives the impression you have no concern for the unsaved, the whosoever, the invitation to come. They are a call to the elect not to the unsaved, as Archangel twisted the verse to mean.
So often I can't keep track of who said what.
But I do know that various Cals say that their obligation is to the elect, and not the unsaved. You have to admit that you are all not united. There is a wide variety of Calvinists on this board. There might be some who would disavow MacArthur as a Calvinist just because he is a dispensationalist. :eek: -
Rippon, I hope you do not mind if I add to your collection here.
Reading through this thread, and the related ones in the C/A debate forum, I felt like reading a sermon to start my day right. I found this one:
The Sheep and Their Shepherd
I. Who is the proprietor of the sheep? They are all Christ's. "My sheep hear my voice." How came the saints to be Christ's?
They are his, first of all, because he chose them. Ere the worlds were made, out of all the rest of mankind he selected them. He knew the race would fall, and become unworthy of the faculties with which he endowed them, and the inheritance he had assigned them. To him belonged the sovereign prerogative that he might have mercy on whom he would have mercy; and he, out of his own absolute will, and according to the counsel of his own good pleasure, made choice severally and individually of certain persons, and he said, "These are mine." Their names were written in his book: they became his portion and his heritage. Having chosen them of old so many ages ago, rest assured he will not lose them now.
Amen. -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
DHK
The thing is.....while AA has the correct translation, he showed you exactly where to look....the truth contained in the passage does not really change at all anyhow..in that EVERYONE believing....are the exact same persons as your whosoever will... watch
everyone believing= whosoever will.......
everyone believing...does not equal....whosoever will not:thumbs:
Whosoever will not= equals everyone...not believing:thumbs:
Why do you have such an irrational fear? cals believe both. You can also if you set aside your fear and actually read what we are saying.
No one knows who are elect or not elect.
We do know that all sinned in Adam.
we know that people are perishing outside of Christ.
we know that the father gives amultitude to the Son.
we know at a point in time, all that are given....WILL COME.
if a person we are speaking with has not come yet, we can urge them to seek God for mercy., based on this knowledge, plus verses such as this;
24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
I for one am very glad to have AA posting,and would that he posted even more, but I would venture to say he is busy labouring in the word and doctrine. Ask him up front...do not accuse first
it seems that way..because manyn here resist the teaching and attack us....so we are not afraid to speak of it... In cal churches it comes up in conversation, but do not dwell on it.
What started this thread is my statement that a person cannot believe these things unless God allows them to.
I believe these points are the truth...so if it is god who reveals or conceals truth...either in parables, or in a persons individual study...he alone knows for certain why.
Some are infra lasarian, some Supra lapsarian, different eschatology, different .ecclesiology.
No one is really united in some ways. we are each different. yet we have most things in common. that is why I go to a confessional church...even with minor differences. The word of God always trumps the confession.
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Another blog post I wrote...
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The remainder...
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(KJV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Here is a translation I found that might be similar to what Archangel was translating:
for God did so love the world, that His Son--the only begotten--He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.
They don't say the same thing. The KJV rendering is as an invitation to anyone, whosoever, all, anyone (elect or not). It is not us that makes that decision. You don't witness to just the elect. Thus whosover (of the all in the world) that believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. The verse is written for us, for our understanding.
In the second translation, it is wrong. It has already made an assumption, a conclusion that makes the verse redundant and nonsensical.
It is like saying: "Whosever is watching TV is a "TV-watcher." Duh!
The verse doesn't even make sense that way.
Whosoever is elect has eternal life. Duh. We know that already. That is not what Christ is saying. He is not teaching the obvious and being redundant.
Whosoever, any, whoever, in all the world will believe on Jesus will have eternal life. That is a promise. It is an invitation to come and believe. If it is anything other than that it will not make sense.
"whosever is believing" is just a phrase that describes the elect, and we all know that the elect have eternal life already. Christ doesn't need to repeat himself with redundant silly statements. The verse is a promise to those who will believe. They will get a reward, that of eternal life, and will never perish.
"Those who are believing," or "everyone who is believing..." shall not perish but have everlasting live.
"Those who are the elect shall have everlasting life." Is that a surprise?
"Those who are drivers shall drive" Obviously.
"Those who are home-owners will have homes." This one is the most applicable. It is simply stating the obvious. That is not what Christ was doing. He was teaching, teaching Nicodemus that he needed to be born again, needed to be saved, needed to trust Christ. Nicodemus was not yet saved. He was not one of the elect. He was one of the "whosoevers" that needed to come to Christ and believe in order that he might have eternal life. This is contrary to AA's interpretation.
It is only God that know those that will be elected. Our obligation is to be his witness.
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
DHK
no contradiction at all(
Yes we have offered it to you about 20times already..it is youngs literal translation...! it is correct:thumbs:
It does not read well in english, but the wordorder and the grammar are given by God. you are calling it...redundant nonsense:eek:
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The above statement is in response to my statement:
No one, I mean no one, is the best in all the world and in all the ages to past.
Icon is putting Archangel above all 54 of the KJV translators, and all other translators of all other versions and translators of Bibles. He is putting him above and beyond all other scholars.
I said:
"There are many Greek scholars far more educated than he is."
Icon says, that I am wrong; unteachable, etc. Amazing!
Please learn not to follow one man; not to be a man-follower.
[FONT="]John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.[/FONT]
The above verse needs no revision, no correction. It is properly translated. To devotedly stand behind a man who steadfastly claims that John 3:16 is wrongly translated is pure foolishness. -
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Brother DHK,
I'm gonna be the one to put the final nails in your coffin here....
In another thread that was closed in the Cal/Armin board, you posted this...
You are jumbled all over in this post. You say that Christ died for everyone, that He desires all to be saved, and then you turn around and said we are born again by the Word of God. What about all those who never knew about Jesus, never heard His name mentioned? That is why the likes of Carey was so desirious to do missionary work...to get the gospel to them.
Yet, not everyone who has ever lived, knew that Jesus existed. Christ died for those who would believe and not those who would never believe, regardless how hard we preached and/or witnessed to them...
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