Signs Of The Times - For The Rapture Or Second Coming?

I believe that you are incorrect here. Covenant Theology generally teaches that the Church is one with the believing remnant of Israel or as some would say Spiritual Israel of the Old Testament. The Apostle Paul demonstrates this in Romans 11 and Ephesians 2.

At least you are consistent with Chafer here: As quoted by Ryrie in Dispensationalism, page 39 Chafer states: The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved, which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.

Of course Revelation, Chapters 21 and 22, sort of leave earthly Israel in Limbo since the earth no longer exists.:tear:

 

I believe you are mistaken here Amy. There is only one people, the Church, the Bride of Jesus Christ. Doesn't make sense for Jesus Christ to have a Bride in two parts does it?

 

I agree with you. I didn't mean to say that there are two parts to Christ's bride. I guess I'm not making my thoughts clear.

There is one people of God. Always was and always will be. We become God's people by having faith in Him.

I was making reference to Paul when he talked about the two becoming one man.

Is that better?

 

You are very good Amy. Wish there were more like you on the Forum.

 

Thank you OR. I am humbled. :saint:

 

"YUP!" :thumbs:

Sho' 'nuff is!

Unfortunately, there are a great many false doctrines out there. :tear:

Ed

 

I notice you didn't address the Eph. 2 passage.

Eph. 2 clearly states that the work of Jesus on the cross broke down the dividing wall and abolished the enmity between Jew and Gentile that He (Jesus) might reconcile both, in one body, to God. The church is one body, a new man consisting of both Jew and Gentile, reconciled to God through Christ's work on the cross.

I see no way to reconcile that obvious truth with dispensational theology.

peace to youraying:

 

Canadyjd, aren't you a dispensationalist? I'm confused, please straighten me out.

 

Where does that leave Abraham and unnamed others? Hebrews tells us about Abraham and unnamed others:

8. By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10. For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11. Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12. Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
17. By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18. Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19. Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

So Abraham and others were strangers and pilgrims. Are they an heavenly people or an earthly people.

What about Moses? Scripture tells us Michael and Satan had a dispute over his body!

Jude 1:9. Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

 

:thumbs: You are so correct. It is sad that these people cannot read the Bible properly; rightly dividing the word of truth.

I believe one of the prime movers of dispensationalism wrote a book with that title:
Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth. Dispensationalists don't rightly divide they splinter!

 

No, I wouldn't call myself a dispensationalist.

I don't believe scripture supports the idea of a separate future for Israel and the church, which is one of the main teachings of dispensationalist theology as I understand it.

peace to youraying:

 

Romans 9 - 11

 

I am always happy to engage scripture with anyone who really wants to discuss the meaning of God’s Word in the context in which it was written. I am, therefore, going to devote some time to answering your assertion that Romans 9-11 somehow supports dispensationalist theology.

Paul begins Romans 9 with a heartfelt reference to Jews who have rejected the truth of who Christ is. He does this to make sure the Gentiles who have believed do not look upon Jews who have not believed with distain or arrogance.

Paul reminds the Gentiles that God had shown great favor toward the Jews in entrusting His law and covenants and promises to.

Paul wants the Gentiles to understand the difference between being a descendant of Abraham in the flesh and descendant of Abraham according to the promise. The child of the flesh has no hope of salvation, but a child of the promise has the assurance of salvation. The children of the promise are saved by grace, according to God’s choice. (v15-23)

This is an important truth to grasp if Chapters 9-11 are to be rightly understood.

peace to youraying:

 

Paul wants the Gentiles to understand that both Jews and Gentiles, saved in Christ, are considered “vessels of mercy”. The vessels of mercy are the children of the promise which will receive salvation in Christ, according to the promises of the O.T. These children of promise comprise both Jews and Gentiles.

Again, Paul reaffirms that Gentiles will be called “Sons of the Living God”, just as he affirmed that to the Jews belonged the “adoption as sons”.

Paul reasserts what was said earlier that not everyone who is a descendant according to the flesh will be saved. The “remnant” that will be saved from among the Jews are those who are children according to the promise.

peace to youraying:

 

Paul reveals why the Gentiles received salvation and why the Jews failed to achieve salvation. The Gentiles achieved salvation by faith, and the Jews did not have faith, but relied upon works of the law.

Paul is clear that salvation in Christ Jesus is for both Jew and Gentile, by faith. The “end of the law” has come with Christ.

peace to youraying:

 

"His people whom He foreknew" are the children of promise from among the Jews, not the entire nation of Israel. This is clear from the following verses.

The chosen among the Jews were saved by faith in Christ (for example Paul), but many were hardened so the gospel would go out to the Gentiles so the chosen among the Gentiles would also be saved by faith.

All Jews are not rejected forever. Paul maintains that although a "hardening" of hearts has been widespread among the Jews, God is able to "graft" them back into the vine. That doesn't mean all will be grafted back in, however, as is clear from the following verses.

What is the condition for being grafted in? It is faith in Christ Jesus.

“Israel” being identified as those chosen among both Jew and Gentile for salvation prepared beforehand for them. They are the children of promise, both Jew and Gentile, identified earlier. They are the vessels of mercy, both Jew and Gentile, identified earlier.

The gifts and the calling of God are given to the children of the promise, not the children of the flesh. The children of the promise are those who have faith in Jesus Christ, both Jew and Gentile, and now make up the Church.

Peace to youraying:

edit to apologize for the font mystery that has embedded these posts.:laugh:

 

As I said earlier, I don't believe scripture supports the idea of a separate future for Israel and the church, which is one of the main teachings of dispensationalist theology as I understand it.

Romans 9-11 in no way supports a separate future for Israel and the church, but rather, rightly understood, clearly teaches the contrary.

peace to youraying:

 

Hay, I like that font! It's nostalgic. Looks like it was done in a typewriter. 10-point Elite, no less.

And a great commentary on the passage too.

 

Ferrell Griswold:

 

canadyjd

An excellent exposition of those passages. I don't believe I saw anything that I could take issue with. It is unfortunate that some do not give the Revelation of God as recorded in the New Testament the reverence and attention it is due.