Signs Of The Times - For The Rapture Or Second Coming?

JD and OldRegular

Thank you.

peace to youraying:

 

Canadyjd,

You did the right thing to study Romans chapter 9 thru 11 by do interpreting them into contextually.

Apostle Paul doesn't say that Jews will possess their physical land again in the future. He was talking about Jews' spiritual and salvation well also with Gentiles too.

Also, Paul told us that there is no difference between Jew and Gentiles, both are same whosoever call upon the Lord, for they all have same Lord - Romans 10:12.

Romans chapter 11 is all about salvation in Jesus Christ. As Christ is the tree well also, He is the vine -John 15:1.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

When I was getting my first exposure to dispensational eschatology, seems to me that I was taught that the "Day of the Lord" in I Thessalonians 5 was a description of the post-tribulational second coming, following right on the heels of Chapter four, which was pre-tribulational.

Has that changed?

I remember several years ago a movie called "A Thief in the Night." It was about the rapture, pre-trib of course. I Thess 5 says the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. And it also says believers won't be caught by surprise.

Then we have Matthew 24. My teachers said that was post-trib. Now, some say part of it is pre-trib, part post-trib. The tribulation in v.29 is the Great Tribulation, but the gathering in v. 31 is pre-trib, because the elect must be gathered before the tribulation.

Anybody want to straighten me out on this? My views on eschatology are so fluid, the best I can say is "here's where I am today, and I may not be there tomorrow."

 

The Matt. 24 passage is very clear that the 2nd coming of Christ and the gathering of the saints follows the tribulation.

The "day of the Lord" from I Thess. is a reference to the day of Judgement/2nd coming of Christ. It is clear from the I Thess. passage that the rapture and the 2nd coming occur simultaneously.

I don't believe scripture supports the pre-tribulation rapture view.

peace to youraying:

 

The ones caught by surprise suffer the wrath, and the ones not surprised, don't suffer the wrath.

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath,

Satan is given dominion over the whole world, and no flesh survives except Jesus returns, so where are the ones not appoint to this wrath??

Certainly not on earth. (Pre trib rapture)

verse 3 is the key to understand it, "peace/safety", the AC arrives on his "white horse" (first seal opened) looking like the Messiah, making a peace treaty and being accepted as being the messiah.

Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not:
(as being the Messiah)

if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
(as being the Messiah)

Israel expects the messiah to be a "man of peace" and establish "peace on earth" as he will during the MK.

The AC is the "Strong delusion", the "lie" God sents.

3 1/2 years of Peace/safety, then the head wound/reincarnated by the spirit from the bottomles pit/Abomination of Desolation/Great trib begins.

Mt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

In the rapture, (day of Christ) Jesus himself comes to reap the church, only his voice can call people from the grave, he doesn't sent angels.

His "second coming", (day of the lord) he sent the angels to separate the "living"..."Wheat/Tares", all deceased righteous return with Jesus, none are still "in the grave", none comes out of the grave, unsaved dead, stay dead.

You've heard it said: The devil is in the details, in this case it's God in the details. :thumbsup:

 

Paul is speaking of the wrath of God in ITh 5:9, not the tribulation. The "day of the Lord" in the day of God's judgement. Christians will not suffer God's wrath.

This is perfectly consistent with the context of I Th. in that they were concerned that those who died before the 2nd coming might somehow not get into heaven.

This interpretation is completely contrary to the context of ITh. passage.

It is clear from the Matt. 24, as noted earlier, that the 2nd coming follows the tribulation period. I find nothing in scripture to support your distinction of the "day of Christ=rapture" and the "day of the Lord=2nd coming". Perhaps you can point me to the passages that clearly make that distinction?

The world sees the Son of Man coming on the clouds after the tribulation. There is the sound of the trumpet and so forth. It is clearly the 2nd coming.

It is during the 2nd coming He sends His angels to gather the elect. The passage from I Th. makes it clear the 2nd coming and the rapture occur simultaneously.

The passage does not say the angels separate the wheat from the tares. The passage says the angels gather the elect.

You are changing what the passage says...why? Isn't it an attempt to support your view? Why do you have to change the words of the passage to support your view?

That is usually a sign your view isn't supported by the passage in context.

peace to youraying:

 

It would be comical if it were not :tear: how dispensationalists want to differentiate between the 'day of the Lord", the "day of Christ" an the "day of God"; similarily their attempt to distinguish between the "Kingdom of Heaven", the "Kingdom of God", and the "Kingdom of Jesus Christ". All this time I thought there was only one God: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

 

"Thief in the night" of 1 Thess. 5:2-9 speaking of His coming at the Day of the Lord, if anyone who is not watch and remain in dark, they shall be catch up by angels with unaware and shock. That means, they shall be catch up by angels with a great supernatural force of snatch. For the purpose is, to gather all nations, to aparts nations into two groups-sheep and goats. Anyone who is not watch and remain in dark(wicked life), will be end up in goats group, and will cast them away into the lake of fire follow at the Day of the Lord-Judgment Day,

We ought to stay wake up and watch and walk in the light faithfully means that we must be holy life all the times always be ready all the times, because we all shall stand before the judgment seat of Christ to judge our life. If we stay wake up and walk in the light, SO, we would not be end up in "thief" be being as goat.

1 Thess. 5:2-9 say nothing of 'seven year of Tribulation Period'. This passage focus about Second Coming.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

I believe you are right. What seems odd to me is that the orgininator of this thread spent several posts talking about it irked him when someone said the return of the Lord is imminent and then asking for a sign. He also mentioned the fallacy of setting times and dates.

However, if one believes in a pre-trib rapture, and believes in the seven year tribulation/great tribulation, followed by the Lord's return, it seems one would have to believe you could set an exact date, exactly the opposite of what he said. For example, if the rapture is 2009, then the Second Coming should be 2016 pretty close to the day. This is why to me pre-trib holds no weight.

 

The Trumpets and The Return of Jesus Christ

There are several passages in the New Testament in which the sound of trumpets is associated with the Second Coming and/or the resurrection. It is interesting to look at these passages and their possible relation to each other. A passage in 1 Corinthians 15, commonly assigned by the dispensationalists to the pretribulation rapture [MacArthur, 1 Corinthians, page 442ff] reads as follows:

1 Corinthians 15:50-53, KJV
50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

Notice that in 1 Corinthians 15:52 the supposed ‘pretribulation rapture’ is associated with the sound of the last trumpet. [Hoekema in The Bible and the Future, pages 167ff discusses this passage from a different perspective than that of MacArthur.] It is also significant that in this passage which dispensationalists assign to the ‘pretribulation rapture’ Paul declares that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Given this statement Paul is obviously not talking about a resurrection prior to the establishment of an earthly millennial kingdom but the resurrection as described in John 5:28, 29 and the Kingdom of God in the New Heavens and Earth.

The 24th Chapter of Matthew is sometimes referred to as the ‘little apocalypse’. In this chapter after the ‘great tribulation’ has occurred the return of Jesus Christ is described as follows:

Matthew 24:29-31, KJV
29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Notice again that the sound of a trumpet is associated with the return of Jesus Christ. The dispensationalist places this return after the ‘rapture’ of the Church and after the ‘great tribulation’. Yet Paul indicates in 1 Corinthians 15:52 that the sound of the last trumpet is associated with the resurrection of the Saints, which, according to the dispensationalist, occurs before the ‘great tribulation’.

In the passage in 1 Thessalonians that dispensationalists also assert refers to the ‘pretribulation rapture’ of the Church, the sound of a trumpet also is heard.

1 Thessalonians 4:16,17, KJV
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

If we reflect back to 1 Corinthians 15:52, the trump of God in the above passage is apparently the last trumpet since both passages point to the resurrection of the Saints.

There is one additional passage of Scripture in which the sound of the last trumpet is associated with the return of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 11:15-19, KJV
15. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17. Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Then the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. The passage goes on to say that the dead will be judged, the Saints will be rewarded, and those who destroy the earth will be destroyed. This passage is obviously referring to a general resurrection and judgment [Verse 18] following the last trumpet. Yet according to dispensational eschatology the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52 and the trumpet of 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17 is associated only with the ‘rapture’ of the Church. What does all this mean? It means that last does not always mean last to the dispensationalist. It means that the dispensational-premillennial interpretation of multiple resurrection is incorrect. It means that there is one general resurrection and one general judgment which includes those who are dead in Jesus Christ and those who are dead in Adam; one general resurrection and one general judgment, fully consistent with a literal interpretation of John 5:29, 30.

 

Jesus remains on earth at the second coming, no one goes to heaven, his saints come with him, How do they get to heaven if not taken in the rapture??

A little confused aren't you???

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Am 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

The church look forward to the "day of Christ" (rapture), we're not looking for the "day of the Lord", we'll be returning with him on that day.

Jesus is revealed in "Stages".

1, Bridegroom (Day of Christ, Rapture)
2. Lord of Lord (Day of the Lord, second coming)
3. King of Kings (Day of God, GWT)

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, (heaven) there ye may be also.

Mt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mt 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Jesus reaps "FIRST" the "wheat" (living/dead righteous) in the rapture, leaving the "tares" to enter the trib. (Day of Christ)

Angels reap "FIRST" the (living) "tares", leaving the "Wheat" (living righteous) to enter the MK. (Day of the Lord)

These reaping are the "opposite" of the other, pay attention to the details.

Can you post the scriptures explaining the trib, without that knowledge, you won't understand why the rapture is "PRE TRIB"???

 

I don't think so. I tried to explain the context of the I Thess. passage to you but, apparently, you are not interested in understanding the context of the passage.

The Greek of 2Th. 2:2 is amera tou kuriou="day of the Lord", not "day of Christ". Either you have a bad translation, or you are changing the words of scripture again to fit your theology.

I do not believe this division can be supported by scripture in context.

You are misreading your own post. The tares are reaped first and then the wheat "Gather ye together first the tares." By this scripture, you do not have Christ rapturing out believers before the tribulation. It all takes place "at the end of the world." It is a post tribulation rapture.

You have to add something that is not there to make it fit your theology. You have added

That is simply not in the passage.

You have yet to accurately post any scripture to support your views.

In fact, the scripture you posted demonstrates the lack of scriptural foundation for your view.

peace to youraying:

 

More dispensational fiction!:laugh:

 

If this is true then can you explain how it is that the Lords comes with all His saints?.
Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

MB

 

Your biggest problem is that you believe in the dispensational fiction of the "rapture".

Can anyone provide one passage of Scripture that definitively supports a pretribulation "rapture", that is snatching away of the Church. The answer is NO!

 

The Hebrew word translated (KJV-?) as saints is "qadowsh". This word means "holy" or separated as opposed to "common". The most literal translation, I think, is "holy ones" instead of "saints".

It can refer, in context, to God or to angels or to the Jewish nation or to saints (O.T. saints in this case if you hold to "saints" as the translation.)

Given the repeated revelation in other places that the angels shall accompany the 2nd coming of Christ, this passage is most likely referring to angels, not saints.

Even if it is referring to "saints", then it would be referring to both O.T. Jews who were "saints" and N.T. Jews and Gentiles who were Christians. It would simply mean that the Children of the promise, both Jews and Gentiles, will accompany Christ at His 2nd coming.

peace to youraying:

 

Why?

You are making too much of a division here. When Christians are raptured, they will be raptured by the command of Christ. It doesn't matter if the angels then go out to collect the saints, it is still a reaping by Jesus.

Something is a whole lot deeper than I am used to.....and it has nothing to do with scripture. :smilewinkgrin:

peace to youraying:

 

I'm looking for some help again.

Is the establishment of the nation of Israel in 1948 the regathering spoken of by the prophets?

Yes or No, please defend your answer.

If Yes, can it be argued that Jesus could not have returned before that event, given that Israel figures in the sequence of events of the last days?

 

Incorrect.

The 'time and date' that can not be set is that of the 'catching away' of the Church.. After that God spells out exactly what is to come to pass with minute accuraccy that only the original architect could have and know.