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Featured Simple way that the bible teaches Free Will

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by prophecy70, Oct 12, 2020.

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  1. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    They also do not imply disability.
    MB
     
    #81 MB, Oct 22, 2020
  2. Craig Hooker

    Craig Hooker New Member

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    That's my making point. Thanks. Simply having a choice does not imply ability nor disability.
     
    #82 Craig Hooker, Oct 22, 2020
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  3. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    The Bible says;
    Rom_10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
    It takes choice to call on His name.
    MB
     
    #83 MB, Oct 22, 2020
  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    This sounds like a prisoner is able to walk around in his jail pod,or cell,but for some reason they do not give him the key.
    No,I do not speculate on a middle ground because man can choose what kind of jam to put on his toast.
     
    #84 Iconoclast, Oct 22, 2020
  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    choice is not the issue,everyone chooses.
    We are speaking about mans will.
     
    #85 Iconoclast, Oct 22, 2020
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  6. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    You are acknowledging a free will.
     
    #86 Reynolds, Oct 22, 2020
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  7. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    A "free will" of sorts. The violent convicted murderer locked in his jail cell can choose to stand up and pace, or to lay on his cot, but whether he stands or lays down, his heart and mind and soul is still a prisoner to the same inner darkness that required him to be locked away for the protection of society. Nothing WITHIN him and no "free will decision" will change who and what he is ... a slave to sin and death.

    GOD and only GOD has the power to "remove a heart of stone" and thereby transform the essence of who and what we are. Only the gift of God offers real freedom beyond the prison of our enslavement to sin and the world. So compare the freedom of a slave to sin to choose any unrighteousness that he desires, to the freedom of a new creation in Christ to live in Christ and please God ... is an "apples" to "oranges" comparison.
     
    #87 atpollard, Oct 22, 2020
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  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    No, not at all. Let me be clear Free will does not exist. If people want to try and use the term and invent a meaning for it they can, but I will not take part in that kind of philosophical musing.

    Men have a will.
    They can think.
    They can choose things.
    Not one of those things creates a "free will."
     
    #88 Iconoclast, Oct 22, 2020
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  9. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    It actually does. The question is "how free?".
     
    #89 Reynolds, Oct 22, 2020
  10. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    The answer;
    7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God:

    for it is not subject to the law of God,

    neither indeed can be.
     
    #90 Iconoclast, Oct 22, 2020
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  11. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Well-Known Member
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    Share the verse(s) saying God is obligated to honor mans' so called freewill.

    [Mat 7:21-23 KJV] 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
     
    #91 Wesley Briggman, Oct 22, 2020
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  12. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    No, it just depends on how you define free will. Those you call Calvinists define free will as the absolute ability to choose what one desires. Unfortunately, without intervention, nobody desires righteousness.
     
    #92 Reformed1689, Oct 22, 2020
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  13. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    WCF 3:1-2
    God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass:

    If God ordains everything that comes to pass

    Classic Calvinism entails determinism.

    Are your desires determined?

    Or do you believe human actions logically precede Gods foreknowledge?
     
    #93 prophecy70, Oct 23, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2020
  14. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    You are completely ignoring the definition of the words.

    If I tell you to fly around the room or walk, you can't make a choice.

    Walk- Option 1
    Fly- Is not an option because you do not have the ability to do that, therefor its not an alternative possibility, the actual definition of "option", flying around the room is an impossibility!

    You can't make a choice with only one option.

    Therefore both options HAVE to be possibilities, which means you need the ability to do both.

    Its pretty simple.
     
    #94 prophecy70, Oct 23, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2020
  15. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    That is a category error, you can't make a choice to keep the law, that includes a countless number of choices throughout a persons life.

    analogy:
    Is it logically possible for you to flip heads on a coin every time 50 times a day throughout your whole life?

    Will you do it?

    NO.
     
    #95 prophecy70, Oct 23, 2020
  16. Craig Hooker

    Craig Hooker New Member

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    We're not talking about random chance of heads or tails. We're talking about moral choices one makes throughout their life. Morality is part of our human nature. According to you it is possible for a fallen human being to remain morally pure their whole life. We are morally obligated to keep God's law. So other than Christ, has any man ever chose to keep God's law perfectly? That is a choice one must make right?
     
    #96 Craig Hooker, Oct 23, 2020
  17. Craig Hooker

    Craig Hooker New Member

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    Category error. We're not talking physical ability. Flying. We're talking our moral obligation to our creator.
     
    #97 Craig Hooker, Oct 23, 2020
  18. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    You said choice doesn't apply ability, its makes no difference what ability is in question. You need more than one option to make a choice, and option is a alternative possibility.

    That means simply, you need the ability to preform each option, or it is not a choice.
     
    #98 prophecy70, Oct 23, 2020
  19. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    you don't have any idea what a choice is.

    The analogy wasn't about randomness, it was about the number of individual choices a person has to make in order to keep Gods law perfectly.

    You can't CHOOSE to keep Gods law perfectly, its a total sum of a numerous number of individual choices.

    Just like
    You can't CHOOSE to not lie for the rest of your life, its not a choice.

    But in in each circumstance that you presented with 2 options, you can either A. tell the truth or B. Lie.

    The chances you will do only Option A for a lifetime is logically possible, but unlikely.
     
    #99 prophecy70, Oct 23, 2020
  20. Craig Hooker

    Craig Hooker New Member

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    It doesn't imply ability. Christ says you do not come because you are not able. Is coming to Christ a choice? A command? Yet your not able to make that choice unless enabled by God.

    Now I'm still waiting for my definition of choice that says choice implies ability.
     
    #100 Craig Hooker, Oct 23, 2020
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