Single BIGGEST Biblical Reason Why You Do/Do not believe In TULIP!

Well, he is writing to a Christian community, so when he indicates "our" sins, it doesn't necessarily have to imply anything you are indicating. That COULD be the meaning, but he could also be using it to refer to the Christian community.

The problem with people being in hell for whom Christ died is that Christ's death did not accomplish salvation. It would only make salvation possible.

IMO, that doesn't work well with a substitutionary theory of atonement. If Christ died in my stead, then that is a different sense than just dying to make something possible. This is further complicated if Christ died for people for whom he knew would not believe in him.

Wesleyan Arminians tend to recognize this and opt for Grotius' governmental theory of atonement or another understanding.

 

Tulip

I see nothing wrong with the TULIP and ROSES, except being incomplete and no way can convey all what the scripture teaches us.

We need to realize the way we are and what we are without Christ and those abbreviations explain it and convey it to us. Praise God for the Gospel message. The words of Jesus is Spirit and life and the words of Jesus and the words about Jesus is where are faith comes from and this faith comes from God.

After Jesus is lifted up He will draw all men to Himself and all authority has been given to Him to do so. The words of Spirit and life bring two roads before us to believe in Jesus and be saved or not and continue to condemnation. So God has placed life and death before us not inclined our heart to believe, but He wants us to chose life and live. God has made us the messenger of this.

This will happen because not a "sovereign man" but because a sovereign God say's so.

If it was up to "sovereign man" they can find anyway to God, but it isn't. It is up to God and only those who believe (trust) in Jesus shall be saved.

Praise God that He has included with His elect those who heard the Gospel of their salvation having believed.

 

I just can not go along with the clear teaching of Calvinism that says God is up in heaven picking people to save, and picking people to not save...

(Unconditional election, of course)

"I pick Bob here, but not Martha." "I pick Ann over here, but not Andrew over there.", etc etc.

That is just so contrary to the scriptures.

 

No Calvinist would claim otherwise.

 

It's not a matter of the elect and others who will believe. Only the elect will believe -- no one else. The Lord causes them to believe.

 

It's The Lord's Prerogative To Choose Whom He Wants

Well,you are right in one way,He's not up in Heaven picking folks to save now. The Lord chose the ones He was to save before the world was formed.

He has the perfect right to select some and pass by others since all of us deserve damnation. He mercies those He chooses to mercy. He also hardens those whom He wishes to harden.

Biblical election doesn't operate under Democratic principles. The Lord elects. That automatically means He doesn't chose each and every person who has,is,and shall live.

 

Try Exod 33:19; Hosea 2:23 and Rom 9:13.

Steve

 

I do not try to make the scriptures fit my theology, I simply believe what they say. When Paul preached the gospel, he told every person who heard his voice that Jesus died for their sins.

Your theology makes Paul a liar who told misleading half-truths. If Paul wanted to tell people that Jesus died for only the elect who were chosen unconditionally, he could have easily done so as I demonstrated before.

The fact is, God's will is not always accomplished here on earth, this is why Jesus told us to pray, THY WILL BE DONE IN EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN. In heaven God's will is done, but it is not always done here on earth. There would be no need to pray for God's will to be done here on earth if it were already done.

 

But the verse does include a condition - it says that it is "whoever believes in Him" (or "whosoever believeth in him" in the AV/KJV). So in spite of what you say about what it "ain't", it is "whosoever believes."

Or did you mean that the so-called "Five Points of Calvinism" say that it "ain't whosoever believes"? If that was your intended meaning, perhaps you could say where exactly Calvinism or Calvinists or Calvin himself deny the glorious truth that whoever believes on the Lord Jesus Christ should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

There is no 'whosoever' in the Greek. This has been pointed out a kazillion times here on the BB:

for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. Jn 3:16 YLT

John 3:16 is not an invitation, it is a statement of fact; a wonderful summation of God's love towards us. The modern day distortion of this most abused passage with the lopsided focus on 'whosoever believeth', is like placing the emPHASis on the wrong syLAHbull and causes confusion with the doctrines of God's grace.

 

I wouldn't say other wise either. He causes them simple because they listen and learn from Him.

John 5:
24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. 30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

Here is the elect

Zephaniah 3:12
But I will leave within you the meek and humble. The remnant of Israel will trust in the name of the LORD.

Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Here is not the elect, with who will be included.

Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

Talking about these

Deuteronomy 7:
6 For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.

He said this.

Matthew 10:33
But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.

They were not able to enter what was promised to them because of this

Hebrews 3:
16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

Romans 11:
20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

But praise be to God


Romans 11:
23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

 

Agreed! And isn't it also true that the Greek word translated "so" in John 3.16 does indeed mean "so", but in the sense of "thus", "in this way", and not (as seems so often to be assumed) as if it were answering the question, "How much?" It's the same word that is translated "in this manner" in Matthew 6.9

"In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name."
​

I don't lay claim to knowledge of Greek, so I cannot be dogmatic on this point.

 

I believe man is totally depraved that all mankind were born with a sin nature and are sinners. That all mans righteousness are as filthy rags.

I don't believe God chose those who would and would not be saved, I believe based on His Omniscience that God predestinated those He knew would choose to believe on Christ to be the children of God. He Predestinated their place based on His foreknowledge (omniscience) as to the choices they would make.

I believe Christ atoned for the sins of all, changing the issue from a sin issue to a Son issue. Have you believed on the Son who paid for your sins and not yours only but the sins of the whole world.

I believe we are all saved by Grace. That God's Grace is available to all who will believe, but that the beckoning of the Spirt can be resisted and rejected by anyone. That many are called but few answer that call, therefore they are not chosen based on their rejection of Christ and it goes back to God's Omniscience.

I believe that once saved one cannot lose their salvation. That Christ holds us in his hands and the father holds us in His too. I believe a believer can become carnally minded but is still saved because we are kept safe because of our faith.

So as you see I don't believe in the T.U.L.I.P for several reasons. Mainly they have no scriptural backing, in fact scripture refutes many of the points.

I guess this would be the main one:

When Christ was judged on the cross for sins, He paid for the sins of the entire human race -- not just for the elect. Unlimited atonement is seen throughout scripture.

Romans 5: 6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

1 Timothy 4:9This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.

10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

11These things command and teach.

Titus 2:11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

1 John 2:2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

Okay KY, just how is the meaning of "everyone who is believing" different from "whosoever believes"?

Do you also seek to define what the word "everyone" means? (we could go universalist here, but the clear literal application is not everyone believes but those who do have everlasting life)

As much as you want to argue that that you can fit the everyone who believes into TULIP's neat little catagory of unconditional election I am going to disagree. This verse doesn't seek to define who is included in the definition of "everyone", it only qualifies them as being believers.

I do agree that this is a statement of fact and not an invitation. The invitation is given in Matt 11:28: Come to me all that labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest.

ARe you going to argue that only the elect labor and are heavy laden?

 

Paul believed in TULIP, and Jesus and I agree. :thumbs:

 

'Whosoever' can make it sound as if 'just any ol' one' can believe. 'Everyone who is believing' is more definitive, IMO.

Amen Sister. That is the invitation.

Yeah, I'll argue that. 'The lead-in' verses prior to 16 gives a good example of why those believing, believed:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1668899#post1668899

 

Where does Paul agree? where does the writer of Hebrews (if not Paul) agree? Where does John Agree?
Not one of the verses below supports limited atonement as TULIP teaches, so Paul did not agree with it.

When Christ was judged on the cross for sins, He paid for the sins of the entire human race -- not just for the elect.

Romans 5: 6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

1 Timothy 4:9This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.

10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

11These things command and teach.

Titus 2:11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

1 John 2:2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

That's exactly the way I see it. Again, the 'lead-in' verses should always be included with this passage:

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up;
15 that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

....as Moses lifted up....so [thus] must the Son of man be lifted up...God so [thus] loved the world......

 

You're right it's based on verses taken out of context and reconstructed in the thinking of man's logic.

If it were unconditional as you claim everyone would have been elected from before the foundation of the world. Not just a particular few. There must have been a reason God didn't choose everyone.

God only chose those in Him. That makes it very conditional. You believe election instead was based on a random selection which leaves you depending on the condition of fate, or fatalism. Which makes it utter nonsense.
Want to explain how man can be In Him and be totally depraved?

The atonement isn't limited to just a few and you have no scripture that says so. Although it's only limitation is the man's rebellion who must submit to the righteousness of God. The atonement has been paid for every person on Earth. To have it we must surrender to Christ. By the way surrender is not a work. Surrender is simply giving up.

Nonsense,Irresistible how. With God not being willing that any perish, again everyone would be saved.
Men have been rebelling against God since the beginning. Rebellion is resisting God. How can you explain all those rebels.

You really do trust man more than God don't you?

You give to much credit to the thoughts of men remember even you believe they're thoughts are evil continually. This is true even after Salvation man is still a sinful creature, because there is no man with out sin. Yet you trust men rather than God's word. You might say but these men are great preachers. Many said the same of Jim Jones.
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

If God's word doesn't say it in context there is a strong possibility that it's wrong.
MB