Also Eternal Life is a Spiritual Blessing Eph 1:3 God gave it to the Elect in His Son before the foundation of the world 1 John 5:11, that is a Gospel Testimony!
So asking my ? again.
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by percho, Jul 8, 2015.
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There is no other physical offspring involved. -
This exemplifies the great chasm between the god of Calvinism and the God of the Bible: Satan was not PUT in the garden. Satan was a free moral agent who CHOSE to rebel against God. He was free to go and do as he CHOSE. He was not PUT anywhere. He CHOSE to go to the garden and tempt Adam and Eve, just as he CHOSE to rebel in heaven against God and was cast out.
The deterministic fatalistic god of Calvinism is NOT the God of the Bible or the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. This deterministic god of Calvinism is akin to the god of Muhammad and Islam. Calvinism is a false gospel. No, actually since "gospel" means 'good news', Calvinism is no gospel at all. The Calvinist god is a puppetmaster with humans as his puppets. This is an evil god, not the God of love of the Bible, not the true Creator, not the Father of Jesus Christ. -
Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>Site Supporter
'….I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal:" -
We can both agree God created all things, "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:". Only God is eternal. I believe when scripture talks about the devil being a murder from the beginning and sinneth from the beginning, it is referring to as soon as he was created. We can probably also both agree scripture does not give us information on when he was formed. The devil did not fall as he was a murderer and sinned from the beginning. Job 26:13 declares, "By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent". Notice the serpent is crooked when he was formed, he did not end up crooked after falling. The "crooked serpent" is clearly the devil as Isaiah 27:1 proves, "In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea".
Adam and Eve were created innocent, but not righteous, however we can see why Eve fell as it was a result of the sinful devil deceiving her to pick the fruit, thus she choose to sin. However, if Satan was not created evil and you have him created innocent, you have a problem and it is this-How could Satan fall if he had no inclination in his nature to do evil, nor any outside influences that would sway him to do evil? With Eve, the question is answered in that she had the outside influence of the devil that God put into the garden to deceive her that caused her to fall, but if Satan is the first sinner and if he wasn't born sinful how without any outside influence of evil would he elect to do evil?
God bless,
Brother Joe -
Adam choose evil because he was influenced by Eve who was a sinner herself for choosing evil because she was in turninfluenced by the devil who was in the garden (put there by God by the way for God's purpose), however if Satan is the first sinful being that came into existence, but as you maintain he was not created evil (I disagree with you), how on earth could the devil choose to do evil if he had no inclination in his DNA that was evil, nor any outside evil influences such as Eve had with the devil in the garden, to influence him to sin and thus fall? -
To be fair, you do know I believe there are many respected theologians who in there commentary believe Ezekiel 28 besides referring to the King of Tyre is also referring to Satan? -
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Do you agree with me that the devil was created evil? -
Christ has a seed and so does the devil. This is taught by Christ, "37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil;"
This parable Jesus's is explaining clearly says Christ plants the "good seed" who are the "children of the kingdom" and also the devil is the one who sows the "children of the wicked one". Satan's seed however is spiritual not physical, now are they physical descendants of Cane, and of course to preach Satan had intercourse with Eve to produce the "children of the wicked one" is also heresy. -
Was Satan in the garden against the will of God? If so, please give me the scripture. Also, Satan is not "free to go and do as he Chose". That is ridiculous unscriptural nonsense! Job 1:12 clearly teaches otherwise, "12 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord" God was telling Satan what he could do. Also after Satan did everything to Job, tell me this, why did Job state, "Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord." (Job 1:21), but we know it was Satan that did it, was Job wrong in saying the Lord did it? No, as the next verse makes it clear he was not ,"22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly." (Job 1:22)
These verses in Job are proof that show Satan is only a pawn that God uses to fulfill His holy purposes! (I know the God you worship isn't that powerful Brother Rebel). If the passages in Job aren't enough proof to you that Satan is but a pawn here is more proof- Looking at book of Second Samuel it says: “And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. (24:1)” Here we see that the Lord was angry with Israel again and he (the Lord) moved David against them in numbering the people. I can probably guess as to what some are probably thinking: But it says in 1 Chronicles that: “And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. (21:1)” Yes, you are absolutely correct and that verse is as much Scripture and truth as the verses quoted above, yet scripture is also very clear elsewhere that Satan is nothing but God’s servant, or better yet His puppet and he does what he is told to do (Job 1:8, etc.). And one cannot deny that these Scriptures in 2nd Samuel very clearly state that it was God who moved David to number Israel.
Brother Rebel, it is obvious you worship free will and exalt it at the very expense of the will of God and His Divine sovereignty. You even posted to me before that it is a possibility that sin could enter into heaven after Christ's return! God predestinated everything that comes to pass and thus works all things after His will, not after the will of man. God is not reactionary creating a "plan B" because His "plan A" was foiled by Adam and Eve in the garden. Why would God create something knowing it wasn't going to function according to how He wanted it to? Not even the dumbest man would do that! As for God doing all things after His will, you don't have to take my word for it, here you go, "according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:" (Ephesians 1:11).
Here is another verse for you if you have complaints about how God does things, "And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" (Daniel 4:35) -
All are created with fallen sinful natures - Romans 5 since the fall of Adam -
What was heaven like before God created the earth, and this heaven as we know it?
Someday God will create a new heaven. Perhaps it will be like something like the heaven God had before man entered on the scene.
Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Revelation 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
--God does not tolerate evil. He does not create evil. Evil does not live with God. It cannot exist with God. Inasmuch as God is light there is no darkness with God, and evil is darkness. To believe that God created and is the author of evil is totally incomprehensible and goes against the very nature of God which is good, and who is light--in whom is no darkness.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
--It is absolutely impossible for God to create darkness (as in evil) for there is no darkness able to abide in his light.
When the perfect and sinless Lucifer rebelled against the perfect and holy God, then the perfect, sovereign holy God had no choice but to kick him and all those that followed him out of heaven.
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Two expressions of Paul are enough to disprove the Two Seed Doctrine that the nonelect were not "in Adam" when he fell. First, "we were by nature children of wrath even as others" (Ephesians 2:3), and second, "hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" (Romans 9:21) Also did one ever say to the Lord, "I was better by nature than those who are not redeemed?" -
Finally, even by taking your position that Satan was not created sinful, you are still left with the problem of why would God create Satan in such a manner that he foreknew he would sin if His will was that Satan never sinned? Also, wouldn't creating Satan in such a way with foreknowledge that he would end up falling be deliberately and unnecessarily costing God the death of His son?
I hope you will answer all the questions in this post I have asked you as you have time. I know from our prior discussions, though we rarely disagree, you are not known for not answering questions. I enjoy our discussions.
God bless,
Brother Joe -
Another question popped into my mind after pondering upon the verses you quoted above. It is true God has promised us in heaven, "27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life." (Rev 21:27). My question to you is this, if as you say Satan was created without sin, but then sinned in heaven, then how can God promise that there shall in "no wise enter into it any thing that defileth"? Couldn't history just repeat itself with another being sinning like Satan did? -
There is nothing evil about creating a being with a free will. The evil comes from a decision made from the creation that is able to choose between right and wrong, just like Adam did. IMO, there is no such thing as "creating evil." It is a choice.
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I worship the God of the Bible whose very character is defined by freedom. So, you want to get personal? Okay, you apparently worship a puppeteer god who has absolutely no resemblance to the God of the Bible.
I have learned much by being on here and on other forums. I have learned that Romanism and Calvinism are much more pernicious than I had even thought previously, the worst systems in Christendom.
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