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So much for its Trumps fault or bears any responsibility

Discussion in 'News & Current Events' started by Revmitchell, Feb 23, 2021.

  1. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    It is a far cry from "not Trumps fault" to "bears no responsibility".
     
  3. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Its neither Trumps fault nor does he bear any responsibility.
     
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  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    That is not true. Trump is responsible for his rhetoric just as the Democrats are responsible for theirs.

    We need to expect more from our leaders than to shrug off responsibility for their words and actions.
     
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  5. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Trump is not responsible for the capitol riot nor does he bear any responsibility for it. His words were appropriate, called for peaceful action and he said nothing that would instigate violence. We know, as fact, it was all preplanned. It cannot be tied to Trump in any way. Any claim otherwise is flat out false.
     
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Trump is not anymore responsible than the Democrats are for the riots, I agree there.

    But Trump is responsible for his role in continuing the rhetoric beyond reasonable political spin. A good leader would have defused the situation before Jan 6.
     
  7. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Trump bears no tesponsibility. His words were completely appropriate. He called for peaceful actions. The capitol riot was totally pre-planned. Trump is innocent and the op proves it.
     
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    His words were appropriate, just as were the Democrats words. Politicians are expected to lie and spin. Trump is responsible for continuing the rhetoric when he could have toned it down. He knew he lost the election and he should have known his disciples would believe anything he said.

    Had he toned it down he could have removed the opportunity for the riot. The pro-Trumpers would not have been there for others to take advantage of.
     
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  9. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    He had nothing to tone down. He said what needed to be said at the appropriate moment. With or without his speech the Capitol riot wad going to happen as it was preplanned. Nothing he said contributed to the riot. Trump bears no responsibility.
     
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  10. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Are you suggesting that Trump knew about the plans a week or two before 6 Jan.
     
  11. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    I just posted. Watch PYSOP

    It is long but has much info.
     
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  12. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Trump was not allowed to lead by the establishment. Got more done under duress than should have been possible.
     
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  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Not at all. I am suggesting that our President should not be held to a lesser standard than we hold our military leaders.

    I am saying that Trump contributed to the situation and is responsible for his actions.

    He should have been pulling back on the rhetoric. But instead he was ramping up. He had already lost the election. It was a done deal. But he continued with the propaganda.

    Most at the rally were true supporters. Most involved in the riot were Trump supporters. Most involved were carried away by mob mentality. They were not insurrectionists. They were not traitors. They were victims of their own weakness, victims of those who wanted to cause chaos, and victims of Trump.

    A leader is responsible for the results if his words and actions.
     
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I agree. It is a shame that he ended his term on such a poor note.
     
  15. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    According to the First Amendment and the legal definitions of incitement, Trump bears no responsibility.
     
  16. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think that this is a true statement either in what he knew or in reality. I firmly believe there were hundreds of thousands of illegitimate votes due to laws not being followed by election officials.
     
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I am not talking about incitement. I am talking about a leader taking responsibility for his words. The First Amendment does give Trump the right to hold the rally and say basically whatever he wanted to say. But it does not remove responsibility from Trump for what is said.

    The Democrats exercised their First Amendment rights when they declared the riots over the summer to be "peaceful protest" and an appropriate response to social ills. That was their right to speak those words. They are not to blame for the riots over the summer, but they do bear responsibility in that their words, while not "illegal", encouraged the riots to continue. They were in leadership positions and need to be held accountable.
     
  18. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    See I see a distinct difference. Trump never encouraged a riot, never called for violence or anything of the sort. Democrats actually did.
     
  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I learned long ago that our beliefs have no bearing on facts.

    I understand what you mean, and I agree. BUT Trump did loose the election. The way our election system is set up fraud can occur at the state level, however it remains at the state level (they choose the electors....the State is not legally bound to send the electors elected by the people, the electors are not bound to cast a vote for the candidate chosen by the State). The system was a compromise (many wanted the House to simply choose a President, as the House represents the people).

    I have one issue with the "fraud" charges in that I believe the biggest fraud was lying to people to get their vote. We look at parties stealing the election, but candidates who lie are effectually stealing votes from the people who fall for their lies. And this happened on both sides (I cannot see that Biden lied any more or less than Trump). So the whole thing was fraudulent.
     
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The Democrats did not call for the riots (for violence). They pretended it was peaceful and blamed the violence on Trump supporters.

    Leaders need to be held accountable for their actions. I am not saying that Trump did anything impeachable. I am not saying that Trump caused the riot. I am not saying that Trump is guilty of a legal offense.

    I am saying that Trump was President and should be treated as if he was the leader of our nation because he was the leader of our nation. He was more than just a candidate. He was more than just a man exercising his First Amendment rights. He continued a false narrative (mixed with truth and genuine issues), propaganda, spin, etc. as if he were a candidate in the middle of running for election when the election was over.
     
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