As I said, I dont deny the etymology of the term. The question is in what sense or application is something "universal."
When it was applied to a specific geographical congregation it cannot honestly mean that this particular congregation was univerally distributed geographically because it is contextually located "AT" specific given locality.
When it was applied to the "epistles" it cannot honestly mean they were universal in regard to their essense because they were confined to the print on a page. They may be designed for univesal distribution but that speaks to their intended application instead of their essential nature.
When other dissenting congregations outside the pale of Roman congregations claimed to be the true "catholic" congregation of Christ it cannot mean they were equally universal in geographical distribution as that is not factually true of either.
The true applied meaning of "catholic" in its earliest use was in response to the Jewish congregations or synonogues who restricted their membership of one ethnic people whereas the congregations of Christ were "catholic" in that regards or inclusive of all ethnic people, all classes of people and all genders in keeping with a catholic commission "all nations."
When it was used in contrast to another competing type of congregation it is a claim of "universal" recognition as the true apostolic church in origin.
Rome finally claimed it as a denominational title.
Sola Scriptura
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by ReformedBaptist, Jun 9, 2010.
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Ignatious of Antioch, the Bishop of Antioch was the first to coin the word Catholic. In a Letter to the Symaians on his way to Rome to be executed he wrote: ".... even as , where Jesus Christ is there is the Catholic Church A.D. 50-110
Your Protestant King Henry the Eighth was the first to coin the Church as the "Roman" Catholic Church. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
One AF writer applied it directly to a particular geographical located congregation. No local congregation is universal as that is an oxymoron.
Second, Augustine formulated the doctine of the catholic church and Rome embraced it. The Donatists (anabaptists) repudiated Augustine's definition of the church and rightly accused him of teaching two different kinds of ekklesia - one local visible and geographically located and another universal and visible. -
Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Since when were Donatists Anabaptists?
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Nowadays that is a secondary meaning, not a primary meaning. The primary meaning is always in reference to the Catholic Church, specifically the RCC. Try it out. Go to my unsaved relatives and ask if they are "catholic"? Will they think "universal"? No, not at all? They will tell you the Catholic Church they attend. The meaning "universal" is rather out-dated and secondary in importance. It is not used that way very much anymore.
The RCC was never Christ's Church; it was never a Christian church to begin with, is not and never will be. It was built on a false foundation. It began in the fourth century with Constantine, and had nothing to do with Peter. In fact there is no evidence that Peter was ever in Rome.
The RCC is not universal. A church cannot be universal. The word church, as used in the Bible, is ekklesia, and by definition is "assembly." It is impossible for an assembly to be universal. Assemblies are always local. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Have you read Augustine's debate with the Donatists? They were accused of rebaptizing all who came from the Roman congregations. The term "anabaptist" simply means "re-baptizers."
Cardinal Hosius, the ambassador of the Pope to the council of Trent claimed the Reformation Anabaptists had been causing problems to Rome for the past 1200 years and he said this in about 1563 AD.
Have you read the Mennonite historian Rolland Bainton's book "The Reformation of the Sixteenth Century" where he says,
"To call these people Anabaptists, that is re-baptizers, was to malign them, because they denied that baptism was repeated, inasmuch as infant baptism was no baptism at all. They simply called themselves Baptists" - Rolland Bainton, The Reformation of the Sixteenth Century. Boston, Beacon Press, 1956, p. 99.
The charge of being Anabaptists originates with Rome against the Donatists. -
Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
These authors sound like Landmarkists in one form or another so are thus discreditable. In any event, the Donatists were both sacramental and episcopal, which makes them rather odd bedfellows for 16th century Anabaptists.
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
...and...er...historical fact. Awkward things, facts, aren't they?
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Who said anything about 'Rome'? It wasn't me....
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Because the issue of whether or not Donatists were Anabaptist or not is not a matter of traditions but of facts.
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Thinkingstuff Active Member
Yes dontatist were very stict and they were very liturgical. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Still, what source materials do you depend upon to defend what you call "facts"? -
Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I was questioning your assertion, which is easily debunked by the facts.
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The Biblicist,sacred Tradition is a direct expression of the authority Jesus gave to the apostle Peter and his successors.Luke 10;16 -"He who hears you , hears me, and he who rejects you, rejects me;and he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me". For over a century there was no New Testament. What was taught was oral Tradition. The faithful, like us today, had to rely on the authority Jesus gave to the leaders of the Church and their successors. It was that authority that eventually compiled the New Testament, discerning which books to include and which not. Whatever the Church teaches, it is bound to fidelity to sacred Tradition and sacred Scripture. This is why it cannot sanction anything it chooses but only that which is in accord with what it has been given: e.g., prohibiting the use of anything but grape wine and wheat bread for the Eucharist.
Tradition is the understanding of God's word as passed on to us by the Apostles in their preaching and by their successors in the Church to the present day. " So, then, brethren stand firm, and hold the teachings that you have learned, rather by word or by letter of ours" [ 2 Thess 2:15 ] -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Seeing as how you like Anabaptists, here is an Anabaptist site which confirms they were schismatics rather than what Catholics would label 'heretics' and were sacramentalist.
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