Sovereign in Salvation

[rc]

ILL,
Wrong assumption. I've read it many times.

God made a point by giving an IMPERATIVE command !

Remember our little schooling on that? By giving a command by which you can not attain to amplifies the following statement !

God gives them an imperative. This imperative shows them that they CAN'T do what they OUGHT to do. Then He declares He is the one that can do anything with them, He has the power to do with them what He wishes. If they repent, it is because of God's plan and if the don't repent it is because God planned it that way, like a potter with clay, He can do anything with it and they can't do anything!

P.S.
God by definition HAS to do as He plans. And God DOES NOT CHANGE!! Are you saying God changes?

"Is making a plan more powerful than God?"

What kind or reasoning is that? He does not change. His plans and purposes WILL COME TO PASS! He isn't bound by His plan, He is bound because who planned it! God can't lie either.. is lying more powerful than Him? That's silly reasoning. Your asking God to have sovereignty over His sovereignty ! Silly. He doesn't HAVE to change His plans because they are PERFECT ! There is no need to change it and would define Him as NOT God if He did!

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by OldRegular:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
The word of God is Gods word to man! Not, man's word to God!

I agree. That is the reason I like the following passage:

1Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. </font>[/QUOTE]I like that passage too! But how does a natural man become a spiritual man? By 'submission only', Not by 'capture'.
Regeneration before belief is Capture!
Belief then regeneration is Submission!

Regeneration before belief is "brainwashing"
Belief then regeneration is willful change. All of scriptures tell us what pleases God is our willingness to believe and to submit to His will! </font>[/QUOTE]I thank God daily that He brainwashed me. He not only brainwashed me He bloodwashed me, otherwise I would still be among those who love darkness rather than light.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

rc;
You keep insisting I'm in your schooling. I am not.

Remember our little schooling on that? By giving a command by which you can not attain to amplifies the following statement !

As a matter of fact I do remember our discussion the Greek word for Predestination is proorizō and it is not define as unalterable In the Original Greek. It is merely mean preplanned, period. Definitely it is not a command. and even if it was, Commands can be changed or God's Sovereignty cannot be what you claim. All things are possible with God and He can change what ever he wants to. and He often does. Jerimiah said so and I believe it and can prove it with scripture.

God by definition HAS to do as He plans. And God DOES NOT CHANGE!! Are you saying God changes?

No God doesn't change but He can change His plans if you deny that you deny God is Sovereign and Claim his plans are Sovereign over Him. Is that simple enough for you?
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

 

[OldRegular]

Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

 

[Wes Outwest]

And your point OldRegular?

Are you saying that Calvinism is correct and all other beliefs are incorrect?

God being an Eternal God may or may not change in eternity or, may not change during man's natural experience. But man's experience is such a short time compared to eternity. What is infinity divided by 6000 years of "recorded history"? OR what is 6000 years compared to infinity?

If God does not change, what existed before the Creation? God must have changed something because He created! Was he creating before he created the heavens and the earth? And therefore the creation was not a change for Him?

Think on these things.

What, oh God, is man that you should be mindful of him?

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
And your point OldRegular?

Are you saying that Calvinism is correct and all other beliefs are incorrect?

God being an Eternal God may or may not change in eternity or, may not change during man's natural experience. But man's experience is such a short time compared to eternity. What is infinity divided by 6000 years of "recorded history"? OR what is 6000 years compared to infinity?

If God does not change, what existed before the Creation? God must have changed something because He created! Was he creating before he created the heavens and the earth? And therefore the creation was not a change for Him?

Think on these things.

What, oh God, is man that you should be mindful of him?

No! I simply am presenting some Scripture that tells us something about the nature of God. I repeat them for your edification.

Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.[/b]

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

By the way, does your nature change every time you do something?

 

[here now]

Wes says:
If God does not change, what existed before the Creation? God must have changed something because He created! Was he creating before he created the heavens and the earth? And therefore the creation was not a change for Him?

Wes,
God never said that He doesn't change THINGS.
He said that HE (HIMSELF) does not change.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by here now:
Wes says:
If God does not change, what existed before the Creation? God must have changed something because He created! Was he creating before he created the heavens and the earth? And therefore the creation was not a change for Him?

Wes,
God never said that He doesn't change THINGS.
He said that HE (HIMSELF) does not change.

Amen! He changed me. Wes earlier called it brainwashed. I call it brainwashed and bloodwashed.

 

[Wes Outwest]

By the way, does your nature change every time you do something?

Not everytime, But I can tell you truthfully that my nature has changed over time. When I was young...and invincible, I knew there was a God and that he loved me, and I was therefore carefree, and I might add somewhat impervious to danger of any kind. Now that I am older, My nature is full of cares, and my actions have become much more guarded.
All that in the relatively short span of time of 6 decades plus a few years. And that is with the spirir of God in me.

 

[Wes Outwest]

God never said that He doesn't change THINGS.
He said that HE HIMSELF) does not change.

If He himself doesn't changed they how did the creation come to be? Something had to change or God would not have created!

Somewhere in eternity God conceived the notion to create. All sufficient God determined that he would create something. Therefore it is my Contention that God changed something in and along eternity's timeline that induced Him to create the heavens and the earth.

 

[here now]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />God never said that He doesn't change THINGS.
He said that HE HIMSELF) does not change.

If He himself doesn't changed they how did the creation come to be? Something had to change or God would not have created!

Somewhere in eternity God conceived the notion to create. All sufficient God determined that he would create something. Therefore it is my Contention that God changed something in and along eternity's timeline that induced Him to create the heavens and the earth. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, someTHING did change. But,it surely wasn't GOD!

Wes, does your Bible tell you that God does not change?

 

[here now]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by here now:
Wes says:
If God does not change, what existed before the Creation? God must have changed something because He created! Was he creating before he created the heavens and the earth? And therefore the creation was not a change for Him?

Wes,
God never said that He doesn't change THINGS.
He said that HE (HIMSELF) does not change.

Amen! He changed me. Wes earlier called it brainwashed. I call it brainwashed and bloodwashed. </font>[/QUOTE]And a BIG AMEN to that too...The Boodwashed part that is.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by here now:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />God never said that He doesn't change THINGS.
He said that HE HIMSELF) does not change.

If He himself doesn't changed they how did the creation come to be? Something had to change or God would not have created!

Somewhere in eternity God conceived the notion to create. All sufficient God determined that he would create something. Therefore it is my Contention that God changed something in and along eternity's timeline that induced Him to create the heavens and the earth. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, someTHING did change. But,it surely wasn't GOD!

Wes, does your Bible tell you that God does not change? </font>[/QUOTE]Why yes it does, but my bible does not cover all of eternity. It does not cover anything outside the realm of the creation! Yes it certainly does describe on cursory basis, the future "New Heaven and New Earth. But it does not tell us much about what existed before the creation, nor does it tell us much in the way of detail what will happen, nor does it tell us what is happening now outside the realm of the creation. The bible is for man IN THE CREATION, and most scholars agree that God is not constrained by his creation. The potter is not constrained by his clay! The potter can walk away from the potting wheel, God can walk away from his creation and come back to it at His leisure. So does God change? How can we know? We cannot escape our condition and our environment. Man cannot escape his own solar system. let alone escape the boundary of God's created universe.

You surely ask stupid questions!

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
You surely ask stupid questions!

This is the second Christian Forum in which I have participated. I am amazed that on both Forums the debate frequently deteriorated into name calling. It is usually worse when dispensational beliefs are involved. I found on the other Forum that discussion with those of the Roman Catholic groups and the Eastern Orthodox were more civil than discussions with dispensationalists.

Why can't we have a debate without getting personal? I am guilty myself, being severely chastened on another thread for refering to dispensationalists as Darbyites but only after I had been called a lying dog and a blind drunk.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Well sir, if you'd have thought it through you wouldn't be.....

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Old regular;

No! I simply am presenting some Scripture that tells us something about the nature of God. I repeat them for your edification.

No one disagrees that God doesn't change but your trying to apply that to mean He doesn't change His mind either. This idea is plum nonsense.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

 

[here now]

Wes says:
You surely ask stupid questions!

Here Now says:
Now, now, Wes, I've never said that you surely give stupid replies...now have I? Nor would I say such a thing. Through God's Spirit that lives in me I have left that style way behind in the "old creature".

All of my questions have stemmed from what you are saying...and are totally in line.

Sincerely,
Here Now

 

[Wes Outwest]

Oh!

It seems to me that If I have taken the time and effort to think things through, others with greater education than my own should have also thought them through to their logical (in sync with spiritual enlightenment) conclusion. However, the questions themself appear to be coming from one who does not do that!

For example: Does God change? If one takes the Malachi passage literally, the answer has to be NO! However, if one thinks for more than a nanosecond, one realizes that if God created, the fact of creation is a change from what existed before creation. Did God Change? Obviously something in God changed, or he would not have created.

So, Does God change? YES! God does change! Does he change in the creation? NO, God does not change! Being eternal, God does not need to change for the temporal, He's got all eternity what is significant in a mere 6000 human years that would cause change in God? Is there any among us who can force a change in God?

 

[rc]

First of all your taking "repenting" literally from a usage in the Hebrew that does not mean the same thing. Secondly it says PLAINLY that God does not change.. period... it does not say anywhere in the Word that He changes "outside" of creation. Are you an open theist Wes? You believe in one heresy I don't see why another would hurt...

 

[Wes Outwest]

Not a matter of "theist belief", I'm simply stating that which you will not think through!