Sovereign in Salvation

[rc]

This truely shows your ignorance of the verses being talked about and the "theist belief" debate, since it is these verses in question that are at the basis of open theism.

 

[here now]

Wes says:
Oh!

It seems to me that If I have taken the time and effort to think things through, others with greater education than my own should have also thought them through to their logical (in sync with spiritual enlightenment) conclusion. However, the questions themself appear to be coming from one who does not do that!

Wes,
I'm sorry if my own logical (in sync with spiritual enlightenment) conclusion does not agree with yours, BUT, that still does not make your logical conclusion, the right logical conclusion.

 

[Wes Outwest]

I did not say it did! But all you seem to know is "quote bible verses" without the benefit of being able to explain or expound upon them.

That tells me that you do not think things through. You do not take the message to heart.

You do not OWN whatever it is you are addressing!

If you don't own it you can't sell it or even give it away!

 

[rc]

Wes,
The biggest problem with you is Scripture usually does not need explaining... unless you want it to say something else to fit your bias presuppositions!

It's o.k. Here now...
If he wants to bring up logic, reason, and education, our side of the scales outweighs his by tons, it's embarrassing.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Your brag holds no fact!

 

[rc]

The fathers of your faith were heretics.... Pelagius, Arminius all the way down to today... oh the power of man! Speaking of fact Wes .. ILL or you haven't given any evidence of Calvinism being condemed as a heresy... unlike your faith...

 

[whetstone]

If there is any elaboration needed in the question 'who is sovereign in salvation: God or man' it's pretty obvious which side you are on. Mark me down for 'Salvation is of the Lord.' God is the determining factor in salvation not our will.

In Christ,

Daniel Allen
www.pre-evangelism.com

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by rc:
Wes,
The biggest problem with you is Scripture usually does not need explaining... unless you want it to say something else to fit your bias presuppositions!

It's o.k. Here now...
If he wants to bring up logic, reason, and education, our side of the scales outweighs his by tons, it's embarrassing.

Broad is the way to destruction! Narrow the way of Life everlasting! I'm glad your side is so bloated! It cannot therefore enter through the narrow gate of Salvation.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by rc:
The fathers of your faith were heretics.... Pelagius, Arminius all the way down to today... oh the power of man! Speaking of fact Wes .. ILL or you haven't given any evidence of Calvinism being condemed as a heresy... unlike your faith...

You presume they were my fathers, but they were not! My only FATHER is God the Father!

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by whetstone:
If there is any elaboration needed in the question 'who is sovereign in salvation: God or man' it's pretty obvious which side you are on. Mark me down for 'Salvation is of the Lord.' God is the determining factor in salvation not our will.

In Christ,

Daniel Allen
www.pre-evangelism.com

Daniel, You are right, and God established who he would save. He told us in scripture that Whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. I don't care how much you twist it, while God is being gracious toward man, Man is saved through HIS Faith in God, and no it, salvation, is not of man's self, but is a gift of God, Not of works lest any man should boast! Any and Every man who has faith in God is SAVED regardless of your phoney baloney BS about Election! You can't sell it sir! And that means you don't own it!

 

[rc]

That's so funny that you put so much weight in a word "Whosever" and it is not even in the text in John 3.16. .... sad.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by rc:
That's so funny that you put so much weight in a word "Whosever" and it is not even in the text in John 3.16. .... sad.

Look at the weight you put into "election"

Your arguement about "Whosoever" is not with me,

-- King James John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-- American Standard John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

-- Living Bible John 3:16 For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son so that anyone who believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

-- Revised Standard John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that [/b]whoever[/b] believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

-- Simple English John 3:16 God loved the people of the world so much that He gave up His only Son. Every person who commits himself to Jesus will not be destroyed. Instead, that person will have eternal life.

-- Transliterated, Pronounceable John 3:16 Hou'toos ga'r eega'peesen ho Theo's to'n ko'smon, hoo'steto'n Huio'n to'n monogenee' e'dooken, hi'na pa's ho pisteu'ooneis auto'n mee' apo'leetai all e'chee zooee'n aioo'nion.

-- Transliterated, Unaccented John 3:16 Houtos gar egapesen ho Theos ton kosmon, hosteton Huion ton monogene edoken, hina pas ho pisteuoneis auton me apoletai all eche zoen aionion.

-- New Jerusalem with Apocrypha John 3:16 For this is how God loved the world: he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.

-- Young's Bible John 3:16 for God did so love the world, that His Son - the only begotten - He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

-- Darby's Bible John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal.

-- Weymouth's New Testament John 3:16 For so greatly did God love the world that He gave His only Son, that every one who trusts in Him may not perish but may have the Life of Ages.

-- Webster's Bible John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.

If the bible you are using does not use a word or phrase that means the same thing as "whosoever", then you'd better abandon what you've got and get a good bible. Keeping the one you use it keeping you deceived!

 

[whetstone]

It cracks me up how you always post 20 different translations of a verse to 'prove' that you're right Wes. One isn't enough? Have you ever looked at a Greek NT or Interlinear? RC was referring to the greek not english.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by whetstone:
It cracks me up how you always post 20 different translations of a verse to 'prove' that you're right Wes. One isn't enough? Have you ever looked at a Greek NT or Interlinear? RC was referring to the greek not english.

Greek is not the language of this BBS! English and American are, therefore scriptures used here are translated from their original language into the English and American language.

Where in any of rc's posts did he make it clear which TRANSLATION he was using?

Remember Paul's admonition about speaking in tongues? It applies here too!

 

[whetstone]

lol.

So we are confined to English translations in our Bible study now Wes?

I was able to tell RC was referring to the Greek because it's only in the greek that 'whosoever' is non-existant. Perhaps you'd like a simple link to prove the fact?

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1111869516-3820.html#16

The word translated 'whosoever' is actually 'pas' and it means 'each' or 'the individual.' The word 'whosoever' doesn't exist in the standard Greek lexicon for pas. Does that clarification help you?

"Remember Paul's admonition about speaking in tongues? It applies here too!"

Paul wrote that in Greek. Your comments continue to crack me up!

 

[johnp.]

Greek is not the language of this BBS! English and American are...

It's English man not American!

johnp.

 

[Wes Outwest]

The word translated 'whosoever' is actually 'pas' and it means 'each' or 'the individual.' The word 'whosoever' doesn't exist in the standard Greek lexicon for pas. Does that clarification help you?

Perhaps you could explain the difference between "each", "the individual" and "whosoever". It seems to me that "whosoever" means any "one" individual out of the whole or any portion of the whole. So what is different from Each or "the individual?

Paul wrote that in Greek. Your comments continue to crack me up!

Well if Paul wrote that in Greek and I understand it, that must mean that I am conversant in Greek. Thanks for letting me know. How silly of me to think otherwise.

Maybe you think so Johnp, but many of the words used here do not carry their original English meaning, or slant, but have been "Americanized", perhaps you have too!

 

[whetstone]

wow Wes, you're never wrong even when you ARE.

Pro 9:8 Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Whetstone,
Try providing the specifics of what you are reproving!

If you are reproving me the person, save your time, You have nothing to offer. If you are reproving what I post, bring it on but be sure you bring the specifics with it. I'll not be swatting at shadows with you.

 

[rc]

Wes,
Why do you keep getting yourself in arguments that you have no place being?

Proverbs 17:28 Even a fool who keeps silent is considered wise; when he closes his lips, he is deemed intelligent.

Anyone familiar with the text as it was written knows that the literal rendering of the passage is "in order that every one believing in him should not perish but have eternal life." The verse teaches that the giving of the Son guarantees the salvation of all the believing ones.

Wes,
To quote C.S Lewis
"Those who don't understand books written for grown-ups, shouldn't comment on them".

I guess you make statements like :
The King James Bible. If it was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me!" ...

Geez ...