Spin-off of the Dr. Morris thread - Was Mary Jesus' biological mother?

[annsni]

Why do we have two genealogies in the gospels? One is the lineage of Mary (Luke), and one of the lineage of Joseph (Matthew). Matthew reads: The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.......

Cheers,

Jim

We have that to show that even going by what man assumed, which is that Joseph was Jesus' father, that Jesus was still of the line of Adam and David. God made sure there was nothing that could even be thought of in error. He made it clear that this was the Messiah.

 

[annsni]

I'm not debating you Ann, just want to ask you a question. Was Adam not like us? He didn't have a biological mother. Was his body different from ours? Did he not feel pain and temptation?

See - Adam was like us because he was our father. We all came from Adam. However, if Jesus did not have a blood tie to the past and He had no blood tie to the future, then He would not be a human like us. If Jesus had no biological mother or father, yet the human race came from Him biologically, then we would be like Him and He would be like us. But that's not what happened.

 

[Jim1999]

So, actual birth is not required to be of the lineage or family line. Joseph had nothing to do with the birth of Jesus, but Jesus was still of the lineage of Abraham.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[menageriekeeper]

Okay, I haven't been here in days and now I'm going to cause trouble! :laugh:

Just what effect could there possibly be on Christ, from inhabiting a body with a sin nature, assuming that such a thing is passed on in our DNA?

This whole question is of none effect because Christ being God in the flesh, would have simply(and did IMO) conquered His body's propensity for sin.

I'm obviously not seeing a bigger picture here.

 

[annsni]

So, actual birth is not required to be of the lineage or family line. Joseph had nothing to do with the birth of Jesus, but Jesus was still of the lineage of Abraham.

Cheers,

Jim

See, I think this addresses the perception of the people at the time - and gives them proof that Jesus was from the line of Adam, Abraham and David. While Jesus has no blood ties to Joseph, the people would not have understood that. They all would have assumed that Joseph was His father. So God made sure that no only did He in actuality have a blood lineage to Adam, Abraham and David, He also made sure that He still had it through His father's line so that those who thought He was Joseph's son still would see the tie. It's pretty cool, if you ask me. God not only addressed the truth but He also addressed the perception.

 

[OldRegular]

I'm obviously not seeing a bigger picture here.

I am not sure you are seeing the picture at all.

 

[preachinjesus]

Maybe we shouldn't try to scrutinize the great and wonderous mystery of God's incarnation in human flesh.

Scripture calls Mary Jesus' mother...good enough for me.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Here ya go - have at it!

It seems an absurd question. Yes she was. His humanity came from her.

 

[OldRegular]

If the sin nature is passed through the man only, then if (or when) a human female is cloned, she won't have the sin nature and will be perfect. Is this what you're saying?

Amy

The sin nature is passed through the man. However, that does not mean that Mary did not have a sin nature; she had a father.

 

[Marcia]

See - Adam was like us because he was our father. We all came from Adam. However, if Jesus did not have a blood tie to the past and He had no blood tie to the future, then He would not be a human like us. If Jesus had no biological mother or father, yet the human race came from Him biologically, then we would be like Him and He would be like us. But that's not what happened.

I agree. I think Hebrews 2 is pretty clear:

14Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
15and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
16For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. 17Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

If Mary was not his real mother and was just a rented womb, then Jesus was not the descendant of David as stated in scripture nor was he truly a human like us. Also, Gen. 3.15 foreshadows that the "seed" of a woman would bring about the savior.
I think this is part of the mystery of the incarnation - that Jesus was conceived as Mary's son yet he had no sin nature.

 

[Amy.G]

I've been doing some research and Here is an article that I think makes it pretty clear how Jesus was conceived.

Let me know what you think.

 

[Marcia]

This is what I suggested on the other thread (my head is beginning to spin now between these 2 threads!):

Adam and Eve had no sin nature because they did not "know good and evil" until they sinned. Once they did - that is, they experienced (knew) evil by disobeying God - they had the sin nature; i.e., the tendency to sin. All humans since are born with this.

Well, here is a theory: Jesus could be born of a sinful woman becaues he was not afflicted with "knowing good and evil" since He is God. He knows what evil is, of course, but he does not "know" it the way man does by experiencing it - that is, by doing it and/or having the tendency/desire to do evil.

I'm adding this:
Jesus exists eternally; from eternity he had not "known" evil so when He incarnated he had the human body but without the sin nature. Maybe His deity made a sin nature impossible. I do not think the sin nature is passed down physically though it is passed down through birth.

 

[Allan]

Why do we have two genealogies in the gospels? One is the lineage of Mary (Luke), and one of the lineage of Joseph (Matthew). Matthew reads: The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.......

Cheers,

Jim

Becuase Mary was married to Joseph and became one with him giving Jesus technical ties through His mother that was in His earthly father. Since lineage could be traced through both parents this gives Jesus not only a passing possibility of being and fulfilling prophecy as the Messiah but establishes His claim by both His birth on His mothers side and His earthly fathers ancestrial claim due to His mothers marriage.

 

[Allan]

I've been doing some research and Here is an article that I think makes it pretty clear how Jesus was conceived.

Let me know what you think.

He says pretty much what I have been saying all along.

Here is a portion of it:

He had no human Father to be part of His conception. It is in Adam the bible states we all sinned, not Eve. Rom.5:12 tells us sin entered the world through one man and that everyone is given a built in death warrant because of their sin nature that has been passed on. The poison of sin and death enters through the male seed into the seed of the woman by the fusion of the two.

 

[Allan]

So, actual birth is not required to be of the lineage or family line. Joseph had nothing to do with the birth of Jesus, but Jesus was still of the lineage of Abraham.

Cheers,

Jim

In short No. It can also be obtained through marrage of one's mother.

 

[Amy.G]

He says pretty much what I have been saying all along.

Here is a portion of it:

Yes you did say this all along. Are you happy now? :laugh:

The way the article explained it, I was able to understand it. This makes sense to me.

It's funny how all these years I really never gave it much thought. I knew Jesus was born of a virgin and that He was sinless, but I never thought about the how or the why. When these type subjects get posted on the BB, then I start thinking about it. Sometimes it confuses me for awhile. But talking about it with you guys has really helped me to get my mind settled on the issue. Thanks! :thumbs:

 

[Marcia]

I don't agree that sin is passed down only through the man. I see the argument for it but I just can't buy it. It seems sort of silly to me. That means it is some sort of physical thing whereas I think the sin nature is more of a spiritual thing.

 

[Allan]

Yes you did say this all along. Are you happy now? :laugh:

The way the article explained it, I was able to understand it. This makes sense to me.

It's funny how all these years I really never gave it much thought. I knew Jesus was born of a virgin and that He was sinless, but I never thought about the how or the why. When these type subjects get posted on the BB, then I start thinking about it. Sometimes it confuses me for awhile. But talking about it with you guys has really helped me to get my mind settled on the issue. Thanks! :thumbs:

I understand.

Believe it or not. I was saved at 17 but it wasn't till I was 19 that in college (and in the college age sunday school) I was getting tired of hearing people 'tell me' what to believe. No one ever really showed me how to study the scripture. Well.. maybe with the exception of my mother but by that time I was already about to head off to college and wasn't paying to much attention.

But God really gave me a very hard question that rattled my brain and believe it or not the question that got me into studying the Word was "Why did Jesus HAVE TO be born of a virgin?" Aside from the fact that some would say "well because God said it and that settled it". I agreed but I wondered if there was another reason because God doesn't just do something without purpose. (and yes, it was for a sign but was it JUST about a sign.)

So I asked my teacher, who by the way was finishing his Masters of Div - but he didn't really know. I asked my pastor who could give me much of any kind of an answer either. He gave me the names of a few (2) other pastors that I called and they pretty much gave me the ho-hum and I think type stuff. So my pastor said if I really wanted to know he would show me how to do indepth studies of the word.

So, it was due to this question that really got me moving in the direction of where I am today. Funny how God works huh..

 

[Amy.G]

So, it was due to this question that really got me moving in the direction of where I am today. Funny how God works huh..

God works in amazing ways, that's for sure. What is sad about your story is that the pastors couldn't answer your questions and took such a ho hum attitude. I would think it would make them want to dive into the Word and find an answer.
No one has ever taught me how to study either. I give God the glory for everything I've learned so far. (except for the stuff I get wrong. Then I take the credit for that. :laugh: )

 

[Allan]

I don't agree that sin is passed down only through the man. I see the argument for it but I just can't buy it. It seems sort of silly to me. That means it is some sort of physical thing whereas I think the sin nature is more of a spiritual thing.

Just curious but how do you say it is physical? If we were talking about DNA then sure. But since we are talking about how sin is passed on - it is specifically spiritual in nature.

Is there other verses of scripture that say sin comes from any other source than a man. The Romans passage is quite specific about sin coming from Adam and yet it was Eve that first sinned.

No baby can grow or form without life and that life does not begin without the man. Thus no sin can pass anywhere until life is created and that only happens through the man. What the father imparts is more than just DNA and that part is life but it is life that is sin stained. Thus when God imparted His life into Mary's seed it was fully God wrapping Himself in the flesh of men.