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Featured Spiritual interpretation ....pt.7

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Iconoclast, May 25, 2017.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Only slight progress was made in pt.6.....Y1 offered a link....but then more tweets, Kyred gave support from both the bible and historical data to the truth of spiritual interpretation having meaning. PB almost single handedly tried to represent literal views of these things, Covenanter responded with sound posting....Tyndale was about to enter the fray, MM offered solid Amill input....we will look at more things concerning the language of the coming of the Lord;
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/7e/81/15/7e81156fb2e7c0b5e18490aed3b8426a.jpg
     
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  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Philip Mauro offers this;
    Passing on to the next chapter of Luke we come to another text which surely has a strong claim upon the attention of those who are seeking the teaching of the Word of God upon the subject of His Kingdom. Our Lord was then on His way to Jerusalem to die there. "And when He was demanded of the Pharisees when the Kingdom of God should come, He answered them and said, The Kingdom of God cometh not with observation; neither shall they say, Lo here! or Lo there! for behold, the kingdom of God is within you" (Luke 17:20, 21).

    This is illuminating indeed. First, our Lord was answering what was in the hearts of those (the Pharisees) who put the question to Him; their doctrine being that the Kingdom of God would come (when it did come) with the accompaniment of outward displays of Divine power, whereby the enemies of the Jews would be miraculously overwhelmed, and they themselves be swept triumphantly into, and securely established in, the coveted place of world supremacy. So he corrected their error by saying that the Kingdom of God came not with ocular evidence, which is the literal meaning of the word rendered "observation" in other words it was not the sort of kingdom they were expecting.

    And the verb He used was in the present tense, "cometh"; which makes it plain that He was speaking of the manner in which the Kingdom of God was coming at that time.


    This is what we are specially seeking to determine just now. And He proceeded to emphasize these facts by adding that there would be nothing of a startling or sensational character, such as would cause the spectators to say "Look here! Look yonder!" "For"--and now, being about to say something He wished specially to impress upon them, He uses an impressive word--"behold, the kingdom of God is within you." Some prefer the marginal reading, "among you"; but the sense is the same. The Kingdom was in existence at that time. It "is." But it was a spiritual Kingdom, such as could not be discerned by the natural eye. This agrees with what Paul afterwards said about it; that its sphere of being was "in the Holy Ghost" (Rom. 14:17).

     
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  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    looking in bible hub...

    The theme of a woman in travail...and birth pangs...frequently are used spiritually in both testaments. hands and knees being "feeble",men fainting...shaken

    Greek
    5605. odino -- to have birth pangs, to travail
    ... to have birth pangs, to travail. Part of Speech: Verb Transliteration: odino Phonetic
    Spelling: (o-dee'-no) Short Definition: I am in travail, suffer birth ...
    //strongsnumbers.com/greek2/5605.htm - 7k
    4944. sunodino -- to be in travail together
    ... From sun and odino; to have (parturition) pangs in company (concert, simultaneously)
    with, ie (figuratively) to sympathize (in expectation of relief from ...
    //strongsnumbers.com/greek2/4944.htm - 6k

    See JPS YLT NAS)
    Jeremiah 6:24 We have heard its report; our hands wax feeble: anguish has taken hold of us, and pangs as of a woman in travail.

    (WEB KJV JPS ASV DBY WBS RSV)

    Jeremiah 49:22 Behold, he shall come up and fly as the eagle, and spread out his wings against Bozrah: and the heart of the mighty men of Edom at that day shall be as the heart of a woman in her pangs.
    (WEB KJV JPS ASV DBY WBS RSV)

    Jeremiah 49:24 Damascus is waxed feeble, she turneth herself to flee, and trembling hath seized on her: anguish and sorrows have taken hold of her, as of a woman in travail.
    Jeremiah 50:43 The king of Babylon has heard the news of them, and his hands wax feeble: anguish has taken hold of him, and pangs as of a woman in travail.
    (WEB KJV ASV DBY WBS)
    Hosea 13:13 The pangs of a woman in travail shall come upon him: he is a son not wise; for at the time of the breaking forth of children, he was not there.
    (DBY YLT RSV)

    Micah 4:9 Now why dost thou cry out aloud? is there no king in thee? is thy counsellor perished? for pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail.
    (KJV JPS ASV DBY WBS RSV)

    Luke 21:26 men fainting for fear, and for expectation of the things which are coming on the world: for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
    /s/shook.htm - 16k

    Powers (43 Occurrences)
    ... days, the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light, the stars will
    fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken; (WEB KJV ASV ...
    /p/powers.htm - 20k

    Bodies (144 Occurrences)
    ... those days, the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light, the stars
    will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken; (See NIV ...
    /b/bodies.htm - 37k

    Stars (64 Occurrences)
    ... days, the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light, the stars will
    fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken; (WEB KJV WEY ...
    /s/stars.htm - 29k

    Shake (68 Occurrences)
    ... 2 Samuel 22:8 Then the earth shook and trembled. The foundations of heaven quaked
    and were shaken, because he was angry. ... The people are shaken and pass away. ...
    /s/shake.htm - 28k
     
    #3 Iconoclast, May 25, 2017
    Last edited: May 25, 2017
  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    was there any other ones...yes there were;
    Shaken (62 Occurrences)
    (See NAS NIV)

    Psalms 18:7 Then the earth shook and trembled. The foundations also of the mountains quaked and were shaken, because he was angry.
    (WEB KJV JPS ASV WBS NAS)
    (See NIV)

    Psalms 46:2 Therefore we won't be afraid, though the earth changes, though the mountains are shaken into the heart of the seas;
    (WEB ASV)
    (WEB NAS RSV NIV)

    Psalms 68:8 The earth hath shaken, Yea, the heavens have dropped before God, This Sinai -- before God, the God of Israel.
    (YLT)
    (DBY NIV)

    Isaiah 13:13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place in the wrath of Yahweh of Armies, and in the day of his fierce anger.
    (WEB JPS ASV NAS RSV)
    (WEB JPS ASV NAS RSV)

    Isaiah 23:11 He has stretched out his hand over the sea. He has shaken the kingdoms. Yahweh has ordered the destruction of Canaan's strongholds.
    )

    Matthew 24:29 But immediately after the oppression of those days, the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light, the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken;
    (WEB KJV ASV DBY WBS YLT NAS RSV NIV)

    Matthew 27:51 And lo, the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top to the bottom, and the earth was shaken, and the rocks were rent,
    (DBY)

    Mark 13:25 the stars will be falling from the sky, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.

    Luke 21:26 men fainting for fear, and for expectation of the things which are coming on the world: for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
    (WEB KJV ASV DBY WBS YLT NAS RSV)

    Hebrews 12:27 This phrase, "Yet once more," signifies the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that have been made, that those things which are not shaken may remain.
    (WEB KJV WEY ASV DBY WBS YLT NAS RSV NIV)

    Hebrews 12:28 Therefore, receiving a Kingdom that can't be shaken, let us have grace, through which we serve God acceptably, with reverence and awe,
    (WEB WEY ASV DBY YLT NAS RSV NIV)
     
  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    I notice Philip Mauro takes on C.I. Scofield here;
     
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  6. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Read Romans 8:18-23. Here are verses 22-23.

    'For we know that the whole creation groans and labours with birth pangs until now. Not only that, but we who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.'

    My question is this: do we, as Christians, recognize this groaning within ourselves at the state of the world. Do we long for the new heavens and new earth, where the wicked cease from troubling and every tear will be wiped from our eyes?

    Or was this only something that applied until AD 70? Is our situation now so great that we no longer groan, and is the creation no longer subject to 'futility' or 'randomness' with earthquakes and other events no longer happening? Has the creation since AD 70 been delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God? Or are the children of God all over the world still struggling against the bondage of persecution with more Christian martyrs in the last 100 years than in the previous 1900?
     
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  7. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    That is one of the most significant quotes in all theses threads. ALL dispies are influenced by that attitude - that mind-set.

    I first heard it from John McArthur when he announced a series on prophecy -
    "The church is NOT Israel, & Israel is NOT the church."​
    He went on to explain that John the baptist would have been Elijah if Israel had believed Jesus as Christ. As they didn't, he wasn't. His proof text is:
    Mat. 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. 15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
    When I pointed out
    17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? 11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. 12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. 13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.
    The reply was:
    "Don't write again, as you won't get a reply."​

    Clearly the dispy focus is on Israel, & not Jesus.
     
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  8. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    ....another Postmil piece (I really like this guy, he speaks my mind!)

    THE SIGNIFICANCE OF AD 70

    "Today we are so distant from the events of AD 70, so removed from the ancient culture, so little acquainted with the first-century Jewish outlook, and so accustomed to the Christian perspective, we tend to overlook the enormous redemptive-historical significance of AD 70. Those events are not merely another sad instance in the history of “man’s inhumanity to man which makes countless thousands mourn.” They serve not as demonstration of “nature, red in tooth and claw.” Neither do they merely remind us of “the carnage of war, the blood-swollen god.”

    But such is mistaken. Rather the devastating events of the Jewish War are the historical manifestations of the furious wrath of the offended God of Israel. Transcendent realities stand back of these temporal events. With Nahum we see the smoke of destruction as the dust clouds from God’s feet (Na 1). We learn that truly “it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” (Heb 10:27) for “our God is a consuming fire” (Heb 10:31).

    Israel’s failure and God’s response

    Jehovah God sent His own Son to his covenant people, but they “received him not” (Jn 1:11). Indeed, they spitefully abused him in defiance of his gracious and loving overtures (Mt 11:28; 21:33-46; 23:34-47; Ac 7:51-53). Consequently, with His rejection, “the sons of the kingdom were cast out” (Mt 8:12), and “the kingdom of God was taken” from them (Mt 21:43).

    Hebrews was written to warn of the disastrous consequences of Jewish Christians apostatizing back into Judaism (Heb 2:1-4; 6:1-4; 10:26-31), just as Jesus had warned (Mt 24:10, 12). It portrays “the day drawing near” (Heb 10:25; cp. Ac 2:16-20,40). This would effect a grand change in God’s redemptive administration — a change that both the author of Hebrews and John liken to “a new Jerusalem” (21:1; cp. 2Co 5:17; Gal 6:15; Heb 12:22; Rev 21:2), which is Christianity (Heb 12:23-25; cp. Gal 4:25-26; Rev 14:1-5).

    In Hebrews 12 the writer powerfully presents his conclusion to his book-long warning. After reminding them from whence they had originally come (OT Israel, Heb 12:18-21), he informs them of where they have most recently been (NT Christianity):

    “But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel” (Heb 12:22-24).

    But many are defecting back to Judaism. And at the worst possible time. They were leaving the spiritual, anti-typical, fulfillment realities of Christianity to return to the material, typical, ceremonial world of a now-defunct Judaism. This apostasy occurred when God was about to “shake not only the earth, but also the heaven” (Heb 12:26). The shaking of the “created things” (12:27) speaks of the destruction of the temple system with its “made with hands” ritual implements (9:11, 24; cp. Mk 14:58), which are “ready to vanish away” (8:13; cp. Jn 4:21; Ac 6:14; 7:48; 2Co 3:11; Gal 4:25-30). In place of the OT system, Christianity will remain as a “kingdom which cannot be shaken” (12:28).

    Israel’s failure and John’s Revelation

    John’s message in Revelation performs the same play but on a different stage and in slightly different dress. John’s new creation presents a new world order: Christianity, which arises from within Israel (Rev 12) and remains after the destruction of the Jewish temple-based system (Rev 11). We know this is John’s point because immediately after describing the new creation in Revelation 21:1–22:5, we read:

    “’These words are faithful and true’; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must shortly take place. And behold, I am coming quickly…. Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near” (22:6-7, 10).

    Though even today we await a final, consummational, eternal new creation order (2Pe 3:7-13), we now live in the preparatory, spiritual new creation order established in the first-century. Calvin comments on Isaiah 65:17 noting that the “new heavens and new earth” is metaphorical language that “promises a remarkable change of affairs” when God “restores his Church” so that it “shall appear to gain new life and to dwell in a new world” (Isaiah, ad loc.). Westminster divine John Lightfoot even relates it to the destruction of Jerusalem “which is very frequently expressed in Scripture as if it were the destruction of the whole world” (2:318). We know Isaiah 65 does not speak of the consummate order for it includes child bearing, sinners, death, and curse (Isa 65:20)."
     
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  9. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    LOL.......Well Brother, Welcome to America! :D
     
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  10. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    Does your user name come from the Barron Knights parody pop group in the 80s, where, in their song "Farewell to punk, it's finally sunk" they include the line, "an Indian curry called 'Earth, wind & fire.'" ? That link is only the first 30 seconds.

    Or is from Eze. 19:12 ? (Young's literal translation.)

    We hear a lot about the US Evangelical support for the nation of Israel from across the pond. Sometimes I feel we should dissociate from the name "Evangelical." And also the vast US government military & financial support for that racist state - the "only democracy in the Middle East" where if you aren't Jewish your rights are subjugated to the occupiers.

    Antisemitism, aka any criticism of Israel, is being defined as a crime.

    All justified by Scripture. That perverse influence in the UK is ever-increasing. 'They' quote Gen. 12:3 "I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse" as if that promise to Abraham applied to the present godless nation of European Jews. They forget the next half verse, "all peoples on earth will be blessed through you."

    That promise that is taken up in the NT to preach Christ, & salvation for all peoples on earth.

    We need spiritual understanding of the OT Scriptures - they apply to the Lord Jesus Christ & his redeemed church - including Jew & Gentile as one people of God, children of Abraham by faith in Jesus.
     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The Kingdom was there in the person of Jesus, but there is also a coming Kingdom at the time of His Second Coming!
     
  12. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    So....it....Was ...there...but now it's not?

    Does Jesus Kingly reign extend over the whole inhabited earth.,and the whole universe..or only like in a 10 ft.radius around Him?

    If Jesus was sitting on a literal throne in Jerusalem....would His Kingdom only rule there?

    IF you say His rule is everywhere....why could it not be true from the heavenly throne right now?
     
  13. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    He is very sharp...puts his cards right up on the table.....i doubt anyone on here will attempt to answer his writing and teaching
     
  14. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    I heard his sermon on this...will post it later along with response sermons
     
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  15. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?fr=yhs-comodo-com_ff&hsimp=yhs-com_ff&hspart=comodo&p=Earth,+Wind+&+Fire#id=58&vid=8081fb71fb72425067467dd139788c28&action=view

    I could not agree with you more.

    I have a very good friend who is a Conservative Rabbi in Connecticut who is a very down to earth, humble sweet man. He was very patient with me in answering questions about Judaism....but he knows that most modern day Jews pay little or no attention to the Torah & Talmud. worse still are many modern day Israeli who Rabbi Carl would describe for the most part as atheist. So there you have it....lip service & historic tradition but very little Yahweh. The man literally grieves for his people who are supposed to be the people of the book. But I don't know how to take to them, they are so blind. Perhaps the day will come ....but its not now.

    But till then.......The Word dwells among us......see below for the full quote.
     
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  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    He is permitting things to happen and go on right now that will cease once His kingdom set up here!
     
  17. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    I'm happy never to have heard EWF in their heyday.
    Not my taste in music.
     
  18. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    You did not answer any of the questions I asked you.
     
  19. PrmtvBptst1832

    PrmtvBptst1832 Active Member
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    Bingo! It will one day be very observable, but it was not at that time.
     
  20. PrmtvBptst1832

    PrmtvBptst1832 Active Member
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    On what authority? 1 Peter 4:7 states that end of all things was at hand approximately 2,000 years ago. Therefore, in order to be consistent in his Preterist hermeneutic, how can he make such a claim?
     
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