The following post was made in the "Unbelief of TULIP" thread. It did not get a response but I believe it is an important enough topic that should be discussed. I editing some parts of the original post since it addressed a specific individual.
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From a purely exegetical point of view the Greek word νεκρός (nekros) in Ephesians 2:1 is very specific. It does not mean separation as some have suggested. If Paul meant to describe the separation of the sinner from Christ, he would have used the word χωρίζω (chorizo) as found in Romans 8:39. But Paul specifically used a word that only has one meaning - dead as in physically dead, a corpse. The diagram below provides a visual representation of how often nekros is used to refer to physical death.
You must click on this link to access the image I made from a screenshot of my computer: https://flic.kr/p/rn3G2A
I believe Synergists read their presupposition into the text. But the use of nekros in Ephesians 2:1 is so clear that, it seems to me, that Synergists bend the text to fit their presupposition. I also have my presupposition, and I freely admit it. But I am allowing the text to speak its plain normative meaning.
One more thing. Further down in Ephesians 2 we read this:
Ephesians 2:4-7 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. (emphasis mine)
New American Standard Bible: 1995 update. (1995). (Eph 2:4–7). LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.
Paul purposefully used resurrection language to counterbalance his reference to physical death in 2:1. Christ made us alive. Christ raised us up. No longer are we spiritually dead, but now we are spiritually alive. These words pictures are not accidental. They are intentional on the part of the Apostle.
Thank you for listening.
Spiritually Dead or Spiritually Separated?
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Reformed, Feb 25, 2015.
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Ok, my Calvie buddies really like this one: R. C. Sproule's image of a mummified corpse at the bottom of the ocean until a salvific needle is thrust in and pumps everlasting life into it. But in the end it is only a metaphor, and it is not altogether clear to what extent the metaphor of the unsaved man represented as "dead in trespasses and sins" may carried.
A dead man has no movement, no soul left in him, no rational, emotional, volitive functions, and cannot resurrect himself from his own death. Yet God says to the spiritually "dead" man: “Awake, you who sleep, Arise from the dead, And Christ will give you light" (Eph 5:14). A "dead" man can't hear, but God says to him, "Hear, and your soul shall live; And I will make an everlasting covenant with you—" (Is 55:3). Also God tells the spiritually dead to "turn and live!" (Ezek 18:32), even though a "dead" person shouldn't even be able to hear much less respond, choose to obey, and then actually put the choice into action. But more, we Christians are said to be "dead" to sin (Rom 6:2, 7, 11, etc.), "dead" to the law (Gal 2:19), "crucified" (or dead) to the world (Gal 6:14), but does this mean that we can't still sin at times, sometimes be moved to legalism, or never again be allured by the world? Of course not.
I have more to say about the Calvinist's use of these passage of Eph 2:1 and Col 2:13, but maybe you could begin by expressing exactly to what extent you carry this metaphor, and exactly what the spiritually dead man can and can't do or feel or think, if he can do or feel or think anything at all. I'm reminded of Bart Ehrman confessing in one of his books I read (I think the one on theodicy) that sometimes he wakes up at night in a cold sweat, scared to death. We might then ask, and there are many other similar testimonies, whether a spiritually dead man can feel conviction (or any number of other spiritually related things), even though experiencing such sounds quite impossible for a mummified corpse settled at the bottom of the ocean. -
Eze 37:3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
Eze 37:4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
Eze 37:5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: -
It doesn't matter whether or not the word is nekros. It is the word for death. We realize that. But in the Bible it represents a state of separation.
For example:
1. Physical Death:
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
--Physical death occurs when the spirit departs or separates from the body. Death is separation.
2. Spiritual Death:
Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
--Spiritual death occurs when sin separates a person from God. Reconciliation is needed. (2Cor.5:18-21)
3. Eternal Death:
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
--The gift of God is eternal life. Contrasted to eternal life is eternal death, or the wages of sin. Eternal death is separation from God for all eternity.
Death is separation.
There is also the Second Death, when all unbelievers will be cast into the Lake of Fire (Rev.20:11-15), and be separated from God in that ultimate judgment.
The Biblical meaning of death is almost always separation.
In Reformed's link it says:
Walvoord and Zuck, in The Bible Knowledge Commentary say this:
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This is a remarkable statement. It does not matter? Really? The whole basis for exegesis is to determine what words mean. For instance, nekros is not the word for death. Thanatos is the word for death. Why did Paul not use that word? What did he not use chorizo if all he intended to convey was separation, as you suggest? I am not trying to be cheeky, but there is no need for me to respond to the rest of your reply when you start off your response to the OP with "It doesn't matter". No serious bible scholar or theologian would respond in such a way. -
In essence, what he is saying is that you haven't proven a thing by proving that the word is death. That's why it, "doesn't matter". -
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Not to carry a word or metaphor to far, for that is why I'm calling attention to it, because I think Calvinists carry the metaphor farther than Paul does (remember Sproule's lifeless corpse buried at the bottom of the ocean's deepest and darkest and coldest abyss), but anyway...
(1) We hear the father say, "'for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found'" (Luke 15:24; cf. also 15:32). Yet while the son was "dead in his trespasses and sins" (if we may interpose Paul's words here) he remembered his father and "came to himself" (15:17), had a change of mind (15:18–19) that resulted in a change of action (15:20), and also a heartfelt confession (15:21), demonstrating true repentance. Now when did the son become alive again? It is not really clear, but we might say life began to stir in him from the moment he "came to himself" and was completed when his relationship with his father was restored.
(2) Then we have the members of the church of Sardis, whom Jesus calls "dead," yet who are exhorted to "remember" how they had "received and heard," and also to "hold fast and repent." So at least in this case spiritually "dead" people (or are they something else? anyway, the word NEKROS is used) can have direct communication with God, hear his exhortations, remember past revelation or words from God, and apparently be called upon to act upon a direct command to repent.
So I repeat my initial request that the writer of the OP might express more precisely to what extent this metaphor of "dead in trespasses and sins" may be carried, and exactly what the spiritually dead man can and can't do or feel or think, or in the end even respond to, whether to accept or reject, the Holy Spirit's conviction and suasion. -
With that established what is the significance of it? A corpse cannot respond to any outside stimuli, and it certainly provides no internal stimuli. Not to sound maudlin, but a corpse cannot go for a walk or carry on a conversation, and it most assuredly cannot make choices. Applying this to the spiritual state of the sinner, the sinner is dead to God. The sinner is still a spiritual creature, but there is no positive response to the things of God. We see the sinner as a spiritual creature because "you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience" (Eph. 2:2). This is Luther's "Bondage of the Will" at work. While dead to God, the sinner is "alive" to death, i.e. sin. By nature sinners are "children of wrath" (Eph. 2:3).
In the TULIP thread a poster appealed to 1 Corinthians 2:14 to explain the spiritual inability of the sinner. I would add to that Romans 8:7. The sinner does not respond positively to any gospel call because he is not capable of responding. He possess no latent faith separate from what God gifts to him during the process of salvation. Faith itself is part of the gift of God (Eph. 2:8). Paul makes a similar reference to Ephesians 2:1 in Colossians 2:13.
Can the sinner respond to the conviction of the Holy Spirit without the same Spirit making a positive response possible? No. Can the sinner positively respond to the conviction of the Holy Spirit if that same Spirit illumines the sinner's heart? Yes. Not only yes, the sinner cannot help but positively respond to the gospel call.
Back in Ephesians 2, this is why I see significance in Paul's "But God" in verse 4. Even while the sinner was dead as a corpse spiritually, God made him alive in Christ. No action is recorded by Paul on the part of the living corpse, the sinner. Instead God takes unilateral action. The sinner will believe by faith, but only after the Holy Spirit has illumined him and made belief possible. -
Homerun!!!! Now Brother, tip your cap as you run into the endzone after scoring the winning goal.... -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Yes....Those who actually study the languages are quick to point out that corpse is used....
Those who oppose this truth need a wounded Adam.....not a corpse.They believe man is a Zombie. That state the obvious...that dead men can be religious.It does not change the truth of man's total inability that is taught in scripture. -
Anthony, it begins and ends with presuppositions. We all have them and we all bring them into our understanding of the text. The honest exegete will admit his bias and take that into account when interpreting the text. It is much easier to just say "I believe total inability is true, so the text needs to support my belief" or "I believe total inability is false, so the text needs to support my belief". The hard thing to say is, "I believe total inability is true/false, so I need to purposefully interpret the text separate from my bias". -
At the risk of talking past one another . . .
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Revelation 3:1 - The church at Sardis was facing impending judgment because they were falling away (3:3). Nekros was used to emphasize the things that had died and were dying.
Romans 6:11 - Paul starts the chapter by asking a rhetorical question, "Shall we continue to sin that grace may be about? May it never be? How shall we who died to sin still live in it?" Paul emphasizes this by telling his audience to consider themselves like a corpse to sin; unable to respond to sin.
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Reformed said: ↑Luke 15:24, 32 - the parable presents a vivid picture of the wayward son being just as spiritually dead as the Ephesians former condition in Eph. 2:1.Click to expand...
Reformed said: ↑Revelation 3:1 - The church at Sardis was facing impending judgment because they were falling away (3:3). Nekros was used to emphasize the things that had died and were dying.Click to expand...
Reformed said: ↑Romans 6:11 - Paul emphasizes this by telling his audience to consider themselves like a corpse to sin; unable to respond to sin.Click to expand...
Reformed said: ↑I have proven it,Click to expand...
Reformed said: ↑just not to your satisfaction,Click to expand...
Reformed said: ↑Incorrect. You, as is the case with other Synergists, misinterpret nekros. Synergists also misinterpret Rom. 8:7 and 1 Cor. 2:14.Click to expand...
Reformed said: ↑Sinners cannot respond in a positive sense the the Gospel unless the Holy Spirit allows them to. Sinners do not possess the ability to respond in a positive way to the Gospel because they are, well, dead.Click to expand...
But whom in the Bible does the Holy Spirit not allow to repent and be saved who wants to repent? We don't know, since all who repent we must assume (by your terminology, not the Bible's) were "enabled". Yet we have instances of people resisting the Holy Spirit, and Jesus saying that the Jews were not willing to come to him, and therefore they would not have life.
Reformed said: ↑All Monergists believe this. We also believe those who repent and believe are enabled to do this by the Holy Spirit.Click to expand...
Reformed said: ↑Because the Synergist views man and God cooperating in salvation. According to the Synergist view God will not assault the sinner's free will. Has stated previously the Synergist believes sinners are not totally unable. They possess the ability to believe in spite of their sin. Obviously, as a Monergist, I disagree. So, this is not a moot argument.
Because man is fallen and God is gracious, he assists, enables, inclines, convicts, persuades man to exercise faith, but the actual exercise of faith is man's alone, whereby he is justified, just as his refusal to exercise faith is his alone, whereby he is damned.Click to expand... -
In Ephesians 2:1 death means spiritual separation.
If it meant literally "corpse" then not only would he not be able to choose that which is good or even Godly, but he wouldn't be able to choose bad either. He would be unable to choose anything. A corpse would have absolutely no choice at all. But it is evident that he does. Every person in this world makes choices every day. What makes us different than the animal kingdom is that we are able to reason and make choices. The unsaved are able to think and make choices that the animals are not. They are not just corpses. They respond.
Not only do they respond to one another, they respond to God in a way that God says they have no excuse (Rom.1:20).
Paul says (Rom.2:14,15) that God has put his law in the hearts of every man. The know innately when they have done wrong. They know immediately that it is wrong to lie, steal, commit murder, adultery, etc. Why? The law of God is written in their hearts.
Not only the law of God, but also God has given everyone a conscience. They feel guilt about the wrong they have done. And just like Adam and Eve they begin to excuse themselves and accuse others. They lie and point the finger at others even if they are guilty. It is human nature. But the conscience will always bother them, telling them that they are in the wrong.
They are not corpses. They are responding to God's law, the conscience that God gave them.
God also gave them natural revelation that declares Him.
The heavens declare the glory of God and firmament showeth forth his handiwork...
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
A corpse cannot be without excuse.
--He can be separated from God, but he cannot be without excuse.
His problem is that he needs to be reconciled to God.
God has given unto us the ministry of reconciliation. -
death
deTH/Submit
noun
the action or fact of dying or being killed; the end of the life of a person or organism.
At what point did the life end spiritually of the individual? Its intellectually dishonest to say "at the moment of conception" as death is the ENDING of life. The OP is a false dichotomy. -
Spiritually Dead or Spiritually Separated?Click to expand...
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
DHK
In Ephesians 2:1 death means spiritual separation.Click to expand...
If it meant literally "corpse" then not only would he not be able to choose that which is good or even Godly, but he wouldn't be able to choose bad either.Click to expand...
Whatever it means, or does not mean...the word is corpse.
Reformed has explained what the implications are very clearly.
He would be unable to choose anything. A corpse would have absolutely no choice at all.Click to expand...
But it is evident that he does. Every person in this world makes choices every day.Click to expand...
What makes us different than the animal kingdom is that we are able to reason and make choices.Click to expand...
No...what makes us different is we are image bearers of God.
the unsaved are able to think and make choices that the animals are not. They are not just corpses. They respond.Click to expand...
Not only do they respond to one another, they respond to God in a way that God says they have no excuse (Rom.1:20).Click to expand...
They respond alright...in rebellion against God and His word.
They are not corpses.Click to expand...
They are responding to God's law, the conscience that God gave them.
God also gave them natural revelation that declares Him.Click to expand...
The heavens declare the glory of God and firmament showeth forth his handiwork...
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:Click to expand...
A corpse cannot be without excuse.Click to expand...
--He can be separated from God, but he cannot be without excuse.Click to expand...
His problem is that he needs to be reconciled to God.
God has given unto us the ministry of reconciliation.Click to expand...
4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the Lord, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.
5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.
6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.
:thumbs: -
The American Dream MemberSite Supporter
Man's free will is bounded by his fallen state. Its that simple. He can choose what seems good to the world, but without the Holy Spirit, quickening, whatever you want to call it, man cannot respond to the Divine.
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