Which verse? :laugh: j/k - I love that one.
Jude 1:17-19 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
I don't waver on double predestination as understood by those who proclaim it. Their scriptural support for it is weak at best.
You don't believe you are more merciful than God, do you?
I would ask Him why some did not believe. If He told me "because I didn't want them to", That would be the first time I believe it.
God allowing people to come into existence knowing they would never believe does not make Him guilty of their unbelief. However, yes, God allowing them to come into existence is, in a way, predestining them to hell.
Still waiting on a answer....
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Jarthur001, Feb 15, 2007.
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I know reformed I heard him to. :)
john. -
[I am NOT a Calvin cop, but I am a moderator. I am asking you nicely not to use colors, large, underlined or any other writing that distracts from the reader being able to read your material. Coorporation would be appreciated. Thank you, Phillip.] -
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Hello webdog.
Where's that tree then? :) Your flogging a dead corpse by the way. If God wants to do something that is foolishness in your eyes He has that right hasn't He?
john. -
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He used wisdom and understanding in choosing me and He must have used that in not choosing whoever.
RO 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
RO 9:18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
john. -
Cool Blammo. :) I was only 400 years out.
john. -
Genesis 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
Quit denying this has to do with nations, and read Romans 9 all the way through.
Romans 9:30-33 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. -
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Large was for emphasis, since it may be "veiled" to the calvinist ;) -
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Has Calvinism been universally accepted until recently? Or, have the only people to oppose the calvinist theology, past and present, been stupid?
Care to answer me with scripture? I'm stupid, sarcasm goes right over my bald head. -
Ok Blammo, Jacob is Israel and Esau is Edom and so God hated Edom and loved Israel? So what, now you have whole nations when I was saying it was just two men?
That He hated Edom there is no doubt, MAL 1:4 Edom may say, "Though we have been crushed, we will rebuild the ruins." But this is what the LORD Almighty says: "They may build, but I will demolish. They will be called the Wicked Land, a people always under the wrath of the LORD. 5 You will see it with your own eyes and say, `Great is the LORD--even beyond the borders of Israel!'
What gain is it to you? Are you saying Jacob and Esau are not included in the "Jacob I loved Esau I hated."? What's your point? 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad... God said He would love one nation and hate another. Is that more sense?
in order that God's purpose in election might stand:
God loved Israel and hated Edom. To show His purpose in election we have the free will way, Edom refused to believe Israel didn't but God hated Edom before they did wrong or right?
Romans nine as I said before is about how Despotic a God we have and as for it not talking about salvation, in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
GE 32:28 Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome."
Is there a corresponding one for Esau, 'Your name will be Edom, you have struggled with God and with men and have failed to overcome' ?
john. -
Obviously "election" means exactly what Calvinists say it means every time it appears in scripture, and now it has been proven to me that, without any foreknowledge whatsoever, God arbitrarily chose to damn some guy He knew nothing about while saving the other one He knew nothing about. Not only that, all Edomites will be damned, and all Israelites will be saved, even though there is a whole lot of scripture to the contrary.
Thanks for clearing that up... :confused: -
Hello webdog.
If we are wrong we are still doing the faith thing. I know beyond doubt that I am saved because I believe Jesus died for my sins and therefore no charge can be brought against me by God. I am certain and sure so I know I have the right kind of faith and scripture commends me for it! Cool. If there is any merit in that I must be raking it in. :)
john. -
Yeah, I was being sarcastic. I did put the J/k which means just kidding... and the smilies. I was not trying to be mean. I consider you a friend Blammo, and always enjoy debating with you. Sorry if you took it wrong.
The point I was making is that not only Calvin, but many great theologians way before him, believe that Romans 9 is not talking about the nation as a whole in all of Romans 9. I believe that Romans 9 is talking about the nation in parts, and not the nation in other parts. The main point is that election is of God, and for His glory. It matters not what man will do. He will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy.
I don't wanna take the time to go verse by verse, so I'll allow many greater theologians to do the work for me. Check out John McArthurs commentary for one. How about Spurgeon or Pink? Maybe even ole uncle John.... Calvin that is. The point being.... that many great Godly men disagree upon the exegesis of Romans 9. I suppose its all how you look at Election. If you base election upon something a man does, such as God having foresight of men believing, then maybe the national things looks good. I know it does to Webdog. Hey if Webdog says its a national thing........ then who are all the great theologians to argue with him? -
Blammo.
He doesn't go to the end to see, He knows from the beginning what will be because He ...works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will... Eph 1:11.
john. -
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