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Sunday School Teacher Fired

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TheWinDork

New Member
Let's here it from the Pastor himself:

Ladies and gentlemen,

however, as you recall there were some who were unhappy with new members joining the church, changes that were being made and my performance in general as pastor. As a result a small group decided to forgo the mechanisms that we have in place for dealing with conflicts or disagreements within the church and elected to hire a local attorney and aired their grievances in a letter to the Watertown Daily Times.

The Board passed a resolution on May 21st 2006 reprimanding those individuals and their actions, encouraged them to avail themselves to our in house mechanisms for expressing concerns and complaints rather than utilizing the local media and acknowledged many of their actions as detrimental to the health and vitality of the church. Since the May 21st resolution the Board has been aware that several of those individuals continued to engage in activities the Board viewed as detrimental to the church family.

In other words, the old bitty was a trouble maker and she got canned... about time a Pastor stood his ground! :applause: :thumbs: :thumbsup:

-WTD
 

Daisy

New Member
TheWinDork said:
Let's here it from the Pastor himself:
In other words, the old bitty was a trouble maker and she got canned... about time a Pastor stood his ground! :applause: :thumbs: :thumbsup:

-WTD
The not-so-nice word is "biddy" (which has an interesting etymology - I had thought it only meant "chicken").

The text you quoted does not say that she instigated any of this or that she went to the newspaper. That is your own interpretation.
 

ccrobinson

Active Member
In other words, the old bitty was a trouble maker and she got canned... about time a Pastor stood his ground!

There isn't evidence for, or against, your suggestion that the Sunday School teacher was a troublemaker. Before you compliment the Pastor, take note that he didn't have the guts to fire her in person, but took the coward's way out and fired her by letter.

The text you quoted does not say that she instigated any of this or that she went to the newspaper. That is your own interpretation.

While you are correct, Daisy, about the text cited, the SS teacher did go to the media once she received the letter that fired her. But, again, there is no evidence to support the contention that she was a troublemaker. It does seem to me that the Pastor was afraid of her, though.
 
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Scarlett O.

Moderator
Moderator
I am under the personal conviction that a woman can teach any class that she is called to teach and can lead the congregation in singing and can bring a devotional or bible study from the pulpit as long as she is under the umbrella of authority of the pastor.

If he feels led by the Lord to ask her or appoints his staff members to ask her, then she is free to do so under his direction.

I used to teach a co-ed class (ages 30-50) for Sunday night discipleship training. I was asked by three men to do so who served as deacons, Sunday School superintendent, and staff members. This was during a time when we had an interim pastor and were looking for a new pastor.

And yes, I taught from the bible. And no, I wasn't struck with leprosy.

When the new pastor came, we were just beginning to organize a women's bible study to meet on Thursday nights. There was already a men's bible study and a men's prayer breakfast already in place. He told us that we would NOT be having a women's bible study at his church because "the women here will just turn it into a big gossip session."

I was shocked.....and hurt.

I felt convicted that even though I was an established teacher, that I should still be in line with his authority even though he was the new guy. So I asked him about my teaching the class. He said and I quote, "Well, somewhere in the bible, I don't exactly know where, it says something about women not being teachers in the church.....".

I was speechless.

He asked the Sunday School superintendent to tell me that a man would be taking my place....no one knew who it would be, but it would be a man.

I said nothing....

...and I stepped down.

Do I think my pastor was wrong? Dead wrong.
Did I obey his authority? Definitely. Without hesitation.

Has he changed his hard-heart towards women. Quite a lot, actually. He means well, but I can tell by the way he treats his own mother that he was raised in a home by a very, very hard man and he never learned to appreciate the calling of women to the Lord's service.

Do we have a women's bible study now? Yes, and he gets all excited when we have conferences and attend other church's conferences and minister to the community at large.

Do we have women in the pulpit sometimes? Occassionally. He doesn't call it preaching, and it really isn't, but he has called a couple of women who have extremely joyous testimonies to come a speak at our church. One particular woman had been in prison camps in Germany and had a blessed testimony of how God protected her and her mother.

Has he stopped preaching on submissive women on Mother's Day? No. I do so wish that he would preach on the great mothers of the bible on Mother's Day, but he always takes that opportunity to preach on a woman's "place" as a mother. Again, he was raised in a environment where the appreciation of a wife and mother was not there.

He did preach one of the best sermons that I have ever heard him preach a couple of weeks ago. It was on Leah and what to do if you feel unloved. It was so moving. I could tell by the stillness of the congregation that both men and women and teenagers alike were stunned by her story and appreciated his words of wisdom in translating her unfortunate life into something we can apply to ourselves when we feel unloved and unworthy.

Is he OK now with women serving on committess? Overwhelmingly, yes. In fact, I am now on the nominating committee and this year, it is an all female committee. It wasn't planned that way, it just happened. He doesn't care that it turned out that way.

Has he "let go" a little on that tight rein on women in places of leadership? Shocking so! We now have a woman who is our Minister of Education. She is in her mid-40's and is a seminary graduate. She is doing a great job with Sunday School.

Has he approached me to teach a co-ed class again? No. And because he has made such personal strides in other areas towards women, I will never mention it to a living soul, except the people at the BB. He has literally asked me to do just about everything else and places his confidence in me, so I can't and won't complain.

I feel like he has opened up to women having value in the church because the women whom he hurt when he initially came here, "took it" with grace and dignity (oh, there's more I could tell you, but I won't) and simply allowed him to observe our worth and did not try to cram it down his thoat.

He's changed....we've changed.....we've ALL grown spiritually speaking. It's been tough, not just as a woman. We've lost some very good people, both men and women. But this man, despite his flaws, has a burden for lost people that transcends any pastor I have ever known. He preaches the truth of the bible, whether it steps on your toes or not.

And he really is a sweet and good man.

So, I don't know all of the facts about this elderly lady who was "fired" from her position. But even if the pastor was wrong, so what. Let it go....move on....and pray for him daily.

There are lost people dying and going to hell every single solitary moment that we debate things that we will never come to a concensus on.

Enough rambling from me........
 
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tinytim

<img src =/tim2.jpg>
Scarlett, you can ramble on anyday as far as I am concerned...
I was raised in churches that taught that women had to be silent... no vote in business meetings... the only thing they could do was testify when given permission....I was taught that the church would fail if a woman had any authority.

I've came a long way... The church I just came out of had American Baptist Woman's day each October and we *aghast* had a woman minister preach last year!!!

It didn't fall down, the roof didn't fall in, and God is still blessing the church. I still struggle with the concept of a woman preacher, and pastor, but as for teachers, If God gifts them to teach, why fight God..

And I dare someone to say, "well God doesn't gift a woman to teach."
I've met many that have taught me a lot.

If you are a guy, set under a woman teaching about "quiet time" You will get a very unique perspective. One that I learned from.
 

Joseph M. Smith

New Member
Like some of you, I went to the First Baptist Church of Watertown website and read both the statements involved. It does appear that there is a lot more than meets the eye here, but that it was very poorly handled. This is an American Baptist Church, and, as such seems to follow general ABCUSA practice in having women on the diaconate and in other places of leadership. It would seem that Ms. Lambert has become disruptive and disloyal and probably is fomenting rebellion in her class. But sending a letter instead of a heart-to-heart, face-to-face discussion is heartless, and using a questionable interpretation/application of an isolated Scripture when the real issues are elsewhere is less than honest.

On the church website there is a blog, and when I saw it there were more than 80 comments from (largely) outsiders, many of them vitriolic, obscene, and very hostile. On the one hand, it shows you how sinful the world is; but on the other hand, I could not help but be saddened by the fact that this event has confirmed some very unfavorable and unfair stereotypes the public holds about Baptists.

One key item that cannot be overlooked is that the church had grown under this pastor's leadership, and that the changes he made and/or which the new people made were unpalatable to some of the older members. Is this jealousy, insecurity, and the like? Or is it, as the press seems to be saying, cruel sexism? I do not think we have the full story.
 

Jim1999

<img src =/Jim1999.jpg>
Women teaching men!!!! There will be a whole lot of female professors sacked instantly, yes, in biblical theological seminaries.

The whole of scripture does not support rejected females from leadership roles. They were there in the Old Testament and they were there in the New Testament....female deacons, no less....Apply what is read in Timothy to a local condition and not the whole church, and you might find the truth.

Where would half the churches be to-day if it wasn't for the female attendees? I know quite a few churches that would be empty!

Step up to the modern times. I don't wear either sandals or gowns to-day, I read from a modern printed Bible and not from manuscripts oh skins.

Cheers,

Jim
 

Marcia

Active Member
tragic_pizza said:
Hear, hear. If you aren't going to allow women to serve, don't baptize them.

Women can serve without teaching (Bible teaching) men or mixed adult classes.

I think there is strong biblical support for this view.
 

LadyEagle

<b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>
3-page warning: This thread will be closed no sooner than 4:30 a.m. ET by one of the moderators.

Lady Eagle,
Moderator
 

tinytim

<img src =/tim2.jpg>
I just got through reading the church's blog.... you know what I noticed....

That the KJVO argument even showed up in the comment section!!!
You cant go anywhere without finding that discussed.

I just thought that was hilarious...
 

EdSutton

New Member
LeBuick said:
Jn 10:27*My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Best as I read it, Jesus said it here, not some other individual.

And Paul be be followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Peter said the elders among you I exhort, who am a co-elder.

I do sometimes wonder how so many seem to so easily overlook the references to multiple elders, but I digress.

Not one of the Scriptures cited, refers to following one who is not following Christ or the Bible, as I read it. :smilewinkgrin:

And unfortunately, at least once, I've had the displeasure of being there, as a member in business meeting (and with no knowledge that this was going to transpire) when the deacons (about six or seven active at the time, with another half-dozen or so inactive, if I recall) at a church of which I was a member, unanimously called for the pastor's dismissal. Subsequently, over time, the wisdom of this call became known. I'll not give any details, but there are some. In the ensuing 20 years, our (this Sunday we will celebrate with our Homecoming of 224 years, as the third oldest extant Baptist church west of the Alleghenies and Appalachians) rural church has virtually quadrupled, and currently we are in the largest growth mode ever in our history.

PTL

Ed
 

EdSutton

New Member
Marcia said:
Women can serve without teaching (Bible teaching) men or mixed adult classes.

I think there is strong biblical support for this view.

Guess you won't be studying at Central Baptist Seminary any time soon, huynh??, since Dr. Molly Marshall is now President and a professor, as well. Let's see- it's OK to be Pres., but not to teach??? Or maybe it's okay for a woman to 'teach' "Church History", and "Homiletics", but not "Matthew" or "Theology"?

C'mon. Read all the Scripture. BTW, the phrase about teaching doesn't have the qualifier (Bible teaching) either in the scripture cited, nor in the admonition to 'teach the younger women', found in another place. Both places merely say "teach".

Ed
 

LeBuick

New Member
EdSutton said:
And unfortunately, at least once, I've had the displeasure of being there, as a member in business meeting (and with no knowledge that this was going to transpire) when the deacons (about six or seven active at the time, with another half-dozen or so inactive, if I recall) at a church of which I was a member, unanimously called for the pastor's dismissal. Subsequently, over time, the wisdom of this call became known. I'll not give any details, but there are some.

Correct, depending on the constitution the collective body can vote to dismiss the Pastor with a Quaram (?sp) which is 2/3 vote of the members present. I truly feel if a Pastor has 2/3 of the members voting against him he was no longer effective in the Church. He probably should have stepped down before it came to this.

EdSutton said:
In the ensuing 20 years, our (this Sunday we will celebrate with our Homecoming of 224 years, as the third oldest extant Baptist church west of the Alleghenies and Appalachians) rural church has virtually quadrupled, and currently we are in the largest growth mode ever in our history.

PTL

Ed

Congrats! Those are difficult Churches to Pastor as they usually have a lot of old families deeply rooted in the foundation of the Church. Lots of "clicks" and power struggles and very few really interested in the lost or the real work of the Church. This doesn't sound like your Church though.
 

EdSutton

New Member
LeBuick said:
Correct, depending on the constitution the collective body can vote to dismiss the Pastor with a Quaram (?sp) which is 2/3 vote of the members present. I truly feel if a Pastor has 2/3 of the members voting against him he was no longer effective in the Church. He probably should have stepped down before it came to this.

As to the constitution, I was actually the chairman of the comittee that proposed the last revisions to the Constitution and By-Laws that were adopted, but do not remember the exact numbers for this, but seem to think it is 3/4 vote for this or about anything else in the purveyance of "super-majority" votes. All others are simple majority.

As to the pastor in question, he did actually 'resign' and was not fired, as the vote was scheduled to take place at a Sunday AM service, in two weeks, in accordance with the constitution. So he left, although after occupying the 'parsonage' for some three or four months additional, even though the bylaws? specified a thirty day period, and the Deacons and Trustees, recommended some more time, which the church allowed. He left, and some church property did as well, at that time, unfortuantely. Some more missing property mysteriously re-appeared in the parsonage, as well. Amazing? but sad!



Congrats! Those are difficult Churches to Pastor as they usually have a lot of old families deeply rooted in the foundation of the Church. Lots of "clicks" and power struggles and very few really interested in the lost or the real work of the Church. This doesn't sound like your Church though.

Actually, I guess I'm the last male (at 58), at least, and certainly one of the last descendants of those "old families", that date back some two centuries, who is an active member there, although a close friend of mine, now in his eighties, is not able to attend much due to his health. And I have never been particularly into "power struggles" so that has basically never been an issue with me. Our growth spurt really started with a mission trip of four members, and a construction worker and the County Attorney, and their wives becoming our youth leaders. I have little doubt that three of the four have the gift of evangelist, as more converts have come directly from their work in any given year, than from every 'revival', visitation, and regular preaching services in any two. G'nite, all.

Ed
 
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