:thumbs: Agreed, it some of the "other" stuff that we are not in agreement on. (General, not personal statement)
T.u.l.i.p
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Salty, Aug 18, 2010.
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Total Depravity
52 vote(s)76.5% -
Unconditional Election
44 vote(s)64.7% -
Limited atonement
33 vote(s)48.5% -
Irresistible Grace
41 vote(s)60.3% -
Perseverance of the Saints
57 vote(s)83.8% -
I believe in 6 or more of the 5 points
7 vote(s)10.3% -
I do not accept any points of TULIP
7 vote(s)10.3%
Multiple votes are allowed.
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Darren -
asterisktom Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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BTW, you Calvinist should make up your mind whether God "passes over" the unregenerate/unelected or hardens. If God hardens them in relation to salvation then God has certainly NOT passed over them, God in fact has taken action to make them worse off. That said then its not enough they are unregenerate and unelected they still need to be hardened still? But then again they are also spiritually dead (T.D) and will be cast into the lake of fire because these things. There is no good news to tell them and no hope for them at all.
Darren -
asterisktom Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Several things wrong here.
1. God does not make men worse off. That would be good being the author of evil.
2. By the nature of His choosing (selecting) some, that of course, make a difference between those selected and those not. But the emphasis on the Bible is the electing - in fact, it is surprising how often this is taught, especially in the NT.
3. People are not cast in the firs because of being spiritually dead, but because of their having chosen sin. We all have had enough exposure to the the truth to be culpable before God. Not all have been given the grace to believe and "run with" the Truth (Christ).
We do have passages where God hardens - Pharaoh, for instance. Romans said that God had raised him up specifically to make His power known. This is heavy stuff, and hard to think about, but we shouldn't deny what is in Scripture.
We also have passages where hardness happens as a result of Truth being preached but not believed: Isa. 6
8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying:
“ Whom shall I send,
And who will go for Us?”
Then I said, “Here am I! Send me.”
9 And He said, “Go, and tell this people:
‘ Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’
10 “ Make the heart of this people dull,
And their ears heavy,
And shut their eyes;
Lest they see with their eyes,
And hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart,
And return and be healed.”
Paul spoke of this also, Rom. 11:7
7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. -
Now the hardening can't be used to back up "passing over" for a proof text, just admit it. Each mention in scripture does not back up passing over neither does it back up the rest of "T.U.L.I". Because God hardened for the cause of earthly decrees not eternal life/new covenant and as I said man can harden their own heart and were exhorted to not harden their heart.
Darren -
Darren -
asterisktom Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Darren -
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28:26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
28:29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.
I think Paul sums it up perfectly on the issue of Isaiah 6:10. I can't find any universal rule, in its context and for its fulfillment and usage its pretty much settled. So I still find no reason to think that hardening is a purposeful action God does universally to prevent people from being saved, although they are not regenerated or elected anyway; this still does not work to prove the Calvinist doctrine of "passing over" as a supporting text.
Darren -
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asterisktom Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
But one thought for now: Do you not think that "God is not a respecter of persons" (Romans 2) does not have some bearing on this very issue?
Take care. -
All Vers From The TNIV
Romans 9:22,23 : What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath -- prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory.
The Apostle is clearly dealing with eternal destinies, not temporal blesses or curses. "Objects of wrath prepared for destruction" and "objects of his mercy whom he prepared in advance for glory" is plainly facing us with matters of eternal weight -- two destinies Perdition and Heaven.
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The KJB gives a very different meaning for Romans 9:22
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
God did not prepare these men to destroy them, they were "fitted to destruction", that is, by their own wicked works they made themselves worthy of destruction. This is a very different understanding of what you believe.
Matthew Henry did a good job explaining this verse, and had a very different interpretation than you.
This shows how different versions convey very different understandings. -
Sorry, your bottom line is below the minimum. -
Secondly this would mean people are predestined to the lake of fire, since the one whom was fitted for destruction had no choice but to be destroyed, spiritually and eternally. This does not support the passing over doctrine either.
:smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin:
Darren -
Anyone who dies without Christ will have an eternity in the Lake of Fire. It will be entirely their fault. But, by the same token, the Lord has appointed them for reprobation. Do you believe that God is justified in the damnation of sinners?
Of course the Lord doesn't make people evil. Folks have that special ability honed to perfection without needing any assistance.
Of course God is not the author of sin. When you repeat such sinfully false statements to others what does that make you Winman?
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The Archangel Well-Known Member
Genesis 6:5--The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. (ESV; emphasis mine)
Jeremiah 17:9--The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it? (ESV)
Ephesians 2:1-3And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. (ESV; emphases mine)
This spiritual death sounds exactly the way Calvinists describe it.
The Archangel
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