Well, I think it fits everyone with a mindset of the pharisee. No man can be saved from sin until they first see themselves as a sinner in need of a Savior. I think we agree on this.
Tasted death for every man !
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by savedbymercy, Jun 8, 2012.
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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John 12:32 is True ! cont
Thats who Christ's means when He says He will draw all to Him if He be lifted up, His Seed, from among the jews and gentiles. Also what He means here Jn 12:26
26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
Now who are those that serve Him ? Its His Seed Ps 22:30
30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
They because He was Lifted up, shall serve Him and Follow Him. The only ones who hate their lives in this world as Per Jn 12:25 are those who have been born again of incorruptible seed. The Natural Man cannot but Love his own life, over the life of God which he is alienated from, for yielding to the serpents temptation proved that and so the fall. For eve was captured by the three things that constitutes love of self and the world 1 Jn 2:15-17, which are
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
These things were present in eve at the time of her temptation see Gen 3:6- For she saw that the Tree was good for food [lust of the flesh], the Lust of the eyes [ The Tree was pleasent to the eyes], and the Pride of Life [desired to be wiser than what God made her], and all this proves that the Natural man even before the fall, that the Love of God was not in us ! But alas, the proud freewillers and God haters, do believe man has the freewill ability to do what God requires for discipleship Jn 12:25 and gain for themselves Eternal Life. These duped people in their devilish pride and conceit, claim to do what even a created Innocent and very good Adam and Eve could not do. If only they had been there with Adam and Eve in the beginning, they could have been to them a good example of how to deny themselves, how to hate their own lives and to serve God and to continue to follow Him ! But thanks be to God, those who are Created anew because of Christ being Lifted up, those men born out of incorrptible seed, shall serve Him and follow Him forever ! -
ONLY seed that the Bible knows is the seed of Abraham, and that was Christ!
For all nations/peoples of the earth blessed by THAT seed, as paul said, seed dingular, NOT plurel! -
HeirofSalvation Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
What a Calvinist can establish (as far as assurance goes) is only a high degree of probability....a very high degree of probability indeed, but they do not know they are "elect" inescapably. These are things which can indeed be pointed to by those who will cry "Lord, Lord"....but then Chist will say "depart for I never knew you". Calvinist doctrine teaches that God "knows" his elect of God's own mysterious will and purpose, and that Christ came to secure the Salvation of them and them alone. A Calvinist cannot point to I John 5, and claim that they "Know" (not deductively, or inescapably) that they are "elect" because they have fulfilled a condition..to wit: they have believed and confessed....Salvation and the atonement are applied in Calvinist thought unconditionally.
A Calvinist can mount a strong cummulative case for their own election by pointing to internal witness of the Spirit and loving one another and works and all of the "signs" which accompany Salvation...so can (presumably) those whom Christ said "depart from me for I never knew you"....But they cannot point to the condition of having placed faith in Christ and repented of sin and turned towards him.
That is the case Winman is making, and he is absolutely correct. You cannot "know" that You Personally were "known" of Christ, and that you were one of the "elect" for whom he died....that is something which is vis-a-vis Calvinism, a mystery exclusive to God's own will and purpose. You can only make an inductive argument based upon probability.
Accept that it is a draw-back to Calvinist theology (it is not a slam-dunk one which disproves it though)...so what?...there are draw-backs to all Systems of thought. It is when one is personally capable of owning the weaknesses in their own Theology that they can test it and know its strengths and learn more. One cannot Grow, unless they are willing to own the short-comings in their own system of belief. -
HeirofSalvation Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Paul diagrees with you as the very term "assurance" is stated in regard to the Gospel change of character in 1 Thes. 1:4-5.
Doing the revealed will of the Father in order to enter heaven is spelled out in clear words in Matthew 5:20 and the righteousness necessary to exceed the Pharisees to enter heaven is spelled out in Matthew 5:48 - "Be ye therefore perfect EVEN AS your Father in heaven is perfect" - WHERE ARE YOU GOING TO GET THAT KIND OF RIGHTEOUSNESS? Not from YOUR good works that is for sure.
13 ΒΆ But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
They were chosen TO salvation not BECAUSE OF salvation.
They were chosen THROUGH santification of the Spirit AND belief of the truth not without it!
God called them "by our gospel TO the obtaining of the glory" not WITHOUT or APART from it.
You may be speaking of HYPER-Calvinism.
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HeirofSalvation Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite SupporterHeirofSalvation said: ↑The Biblicist said: ↑Yes....and the knowledge that you are a "changed man" is a subjective one to which Mahatma Ghandi can point....That is what is being argued, no one is denying your cummulative case for probable evidence of Salvation...But you simply cannot demonstrate or prove to yourself (except by personal testimony) that you were "chosen" or "elect" before the foundation of the World...You don't KNOW that Christ died for you, you believe that one can have evidence of it by the "changed life" of which you speak....Ghandi had a "changed life". So did Siddhartha Gautama.Click to expand...
Your argument depends solely upon isolation of experiential knowlege from Biblical confirmation of that knowledge. Granted, if you isolate experiential knowlege from a bible basis then no professed Christian can have assurance about anything whether it is miraculous experience or non-miraculous experience as Satan can provides miraculous experiences.
However, the response to your rationale is Isaiah 8:19-20 - "speak not according to THIS WORD it is because there is NO LIGHT IN THEM."
My whole line of argumentation is admittedly BIBLICAL BASED and BIBLICALLY CONFIRMED. Hence, your whole line of attack is simply invalidated and void!
HeirofSalvation said: ↑Agreed.....They relyed upon works....You rely upon Christ's finished work upon the cross....but your evidence of it is based upon the internal witness of the Spirit (subjective) works (subjective) and a changed life (subjective).Click to expand...
This is the archilles heel of every arugment you make in this post. You are ignoring that the experiential knowledge I present is also AFFIRMED BIBLICALLY and it is that JOINT condition that distinguishes it from the experiential knowledge of Ghandi or Charismatics.Click to expand... -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite SupporterHeirofSalvation said: ↑This does not in any way adress what my post was trying to convey...not at all,Click to expand...
HeirofSalvation said: ↑You do not side with "Paul" against any windmill that you are assaulting....Paul, BTW is testifying to how HE HIMSELF is sure of their election.....not establishing parameters by which they might...read it again...Read vs, 1-3 first... You have just miss-applied Paul...Paul does not side with you on your interpretation here.Click to expand... -
HeirofSalvation said: ↑That and the seed of the Serpent, the seed of the wicked one...see Gen. 3: 15 and Matt 13:38...But they are not a physical seed as is Christ, the "seed of the woman".Click to expand...
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite SupporterThe Biblicist said: ↑HeirofSalvation said: ↑You are missing the point completely! Ghandi's change is not BIBLE BASED nor CONFIRMED by the Scriptures.
Your argument depends solely upon isolation of experiential knowlege from Biblical confirmation of that knowledge. Granted, if you isolate experiential knowlege from a bible basis then no professed Christian can have assurance about anything whether it is miraculous experience or non-miraculous experience as Satan can provides miraculous experiences.
However, the response to your rationale is Isaiah 8:19-20 - "speak not according to THIS WORD it is because there is NO LIGHT IN THEM."
My whole line of argumentation is admittedly BIBLICAL BASED and BIBLICALLY CONFIRMED. Hence, your whole line of attack is simply invalidated and void!
Your statement is oxymoronic! You agree about Christ finished works only because it is BIBLICALLY BASED knowlege, however, you reject my "evidence" when it also is BIBLICALL BASED knowlege and not merely subjective or speculative in nature. Ghandi's subjective experience is not BIBLICAL BASED KNOWLEGE. The point is that my experience is AFFIRMED Biblically just as Christ's death on the cross as a finished work is AFFIRMED Biblically.
This is the archilles heel of every arugment you make in this post. You are ignoring that the experiential knowledge I present is also AFFIRMED BIBLICALLY and it is that JOINT condition that distinguishes it from the experiential knowledge of Ghandi or Charismatics.Click to expand...
If the Scriptures are considered an objective basis for right and wrong both theoretically and experientially then any experiential or theoretical knowledge can be fully confirmed or denied by the scriptures.
Experiential salvation can be confirmed and denied by the Scriptures - Isa. 8:20
The Scriptures claim that Scriptures are profitable for doctrine and instruction and correction but where does it say experiential knowledge apart from confirmation by scripture is profitable for doctrine, instruction or correction? - 2 Tim. 3:16-17.Click to expand... -
HeirofSalvation Well-Known MemberSite SupporterThe Biblicist said: ↑You are missing the point completely! Ghandi's change is not BIBLE BASED nor CONFIRMED by the Scriptures.Click to expand...
Your argument depends solely upon isolation of experiential knowlege and Biblical confirmation of that knowledge.Click to expand...
However, the response to your rationale is Isaiah 8:19-20 - "speak not according to THIS WORD it is because there is NO LIGHT IN THEM."Click to expand...
My whole line of argumentation is admittedly BIBLICAL BASED and BIBLICALLY CONFIRMED. Hence, your whole line of attack is simply invalidated and void!Click to expand...
Your statement is oxymoronic!Click to expand...
You agree about Christ finished works only because it is BIBLICALLY BASED knowlege,Click to expand...
however, you reject my "evidence" when it also is BIBLICALL BASED knowlege and not merely subjective or speculative in nature.Click to expand...
Ghandi's subjective experience is not BIBLICAL BASED KNOWLEGE. The point is that my experience is AFFIRMED Biblically just as Christ's death on the cross as a finished work is AFFIRMED Biblically.Click to expand...
This is the archilles heel of every arugment you make in this post. You are ignoring that the experiential knowledge I present is also AFFIRMED BIBLICALLYClick to expand...
THAT it serves as EVIDENCE it is indeed Biblical, and it is also not being denied.... by my posts....I have stated that repeatedly. And it indeed serves as an Inductive set of probabilistic evidences....I have indeed already said that, and I have even stated that it can make for a powerful case indeed. See my first post....I tend to think you have not heard of Winman's arguments before...if you have, you simply have not addressed them or mine....
You have no way of "KNOWING" however, not deductively, that You personally were in view with God's election or with the atonement on the cross.....You can only probabalistically assume it. This is a classic non-Cal argument which has existed for ages. And you appear to be merely avoiding it, or not understand the crux of it. An Arminian appeals to having met certain conditions (namely, repentance and faith) to assure themselves of Salvation...you are appealing to evidences of what is assumed to have been a previous act, not of your own will or purpose, but of God's alone....God has not written in his Scriptures who was in view. He has not written in the Scriptures the identity of those whom he "elected". You are taking a set of evidences and believing that you have met the criterion of who would subsequently qualify ex post facto.Click to expand... -
HeirofSalvation Well-Known MemberSite SupporterYeshua1 said: ↑What are those 2 other 'seeds?"Click to expand...
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the sure sign to a calvinist that one has been saved, is one of the so called elect is that one has received jesus, placed faith in him, having a new nature, confirmed by inner witness of the Holy Spirit and the testimony of the Word!
IF one is not saved, one could care less about the real jesus and real gospel!
called having a fallen nature! -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite SupporterHeirofSalvation said: ↑The Biblicist said: ↑"The Biblicist" has never read in the Scriptures that he personally, was one of the elect...he is appealing to his belief that he has met the conditions to be properly categorized that way...It is not provable, It is not deductive, it is subjective and it is circumstantial.Click to expand...
Furthermore, the Bible tells us HOW we can know experientially it is true as individuals. Therefore every child of God can EXPERIENTIALLY KNOW they are saved/elect because the Bible tells HOW it can be known. Hence, the issue of HOW TO KNOW experientially is not a matter of debate but a matter of faith and disbelief! Which is it for you?
Now, in regard to my own person, the Bible provides the absolute objective evidence that all children of God can know they are saved and how they can experientially know it.
I claim to be a child of God. I claim to be an elect. The Bible furnished me with the objective evidence how this can be confirmed both theoretically and experientially in me, as in any reader of these epistles during the days of the apostles.
Does my personal experience MATCH the THEORETICAL and EXPERIENTIAL characteristics the Bible provides TO KNOW I am a child of God and an elect of God?
If so, the shoe fits and if not then the shoe does not fit. I can know and others can know by simply applying the Biblical absolutes to my profession/doctrine/life. Again, this is not an issue of debate, but a matter of faith or unbelief with me? Which is it? It is a matter of faith without the slightest doubt because my faith has for its object the revealed Word of God on this subject both to the theoretical and experiential.
Inductive reasoning says if the premise is true then it is probably true of any person fitting that premise. However, inductive reasoning does not demand the premise is true or can prove the premise is true. Inductive reasoning includes DOUBT in regard to both the premise and the application or conclusion.
DOUBT is only resolved by FAITH. I personally BELIEVE God's Word and therefore I have NO PERSONAL DOUBTS that my experience fits the Biblical premise for knowing THEORETICALLY and EXPERIENTIALLY I am God's elect and saved because I have compared both my THEORETICAL and EXPERIENTIAL to God's Word and affirmed it.Click to expand... -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite SupporterThe Biblicist said: ↑HeirofSalvation said: ↑Deductive reasoning demands the conclusions are true if the premises are true. The premises are true because the Bible declares them to be true. Hence, the issue is not a matter of debate but a matter of faith or disbelief! Which is it for you?
Furthermore, the Bible tells us HOW we can know experientially it is true as individuals. Therefore every child of God can EXPERIENTIALLY KNOW they are saved/elect because the Bible tells HOW it can be known. Hence, the issue of HOW TO KNOW experientially is not a matter of debate but a matter of faith and disbelief! Which is it for you?
Now, in regard to my own person, the Bible provides the absolute objective evidence that all children of God can know they are saved and how they can experientially know it.
I claim to be a child of God. I claim to be an elect. The Bible furnished me with the objective evidence how this can be confirmed both theoretically and experientially in me, as in any reader of these epistles during the days of the apostles.
Does my personal experience MATCH the THEORETICAL and EXPERIENTIAL characteristics the Bible provides TO KNOW I am a child of God and an elect of God?
If so, the shoe fits and if not then the shoe does not fit. I can know and others can know by simply applying the Biblical absolutes to my profession/doctrine/life. Again, this is not an issue of debate, but a matter of faith or unbelief with me? Which is it? It is a matter of faith without the slightest doubt because my faith has for its object the revealed Word of God on this subject both to the theoretical and experiential.
Inductive reasoning says if the premise is true then it is probably true of any person fitting that premise. However, inductive reasoning does not demand the premise is true or can prove the premise is true. Inductive reasoning includes DOUBT in regard to both the premise and the application or conclusion.
DOUBT is only resolved by FAITH. I personally BELIEVE God's Word and therefore I have NO PERSONAL DOUBTS that my experience fits the Biblical premise for knowing THEORETICALLY and EXPERIENTIALLY I am God's elect and saved because I have compared both my THEORETICAL and EXPERIENTIAL to God's Word and affirmed it.Click to expand...
Other than that, That is why faith is a GIFT of God that affirms the truth of God's Word to the individual experience as "faith" is another characteristic of "how" one can know = assurance (Jn. 6:64-65; "except it were given to him"; 1 Thes. 1:5 "in much assurance").
The same requirement to accept the revelation of Christ's finished work on the cross is the same requirement to know you are a child of God - faith in God's Word.Click to expand... -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite SupporterThe Biblicist said: ↑The Biblicist said: ↑You will no doubt reply that my affirming it does not make it so as your denying it does not make it less than fact UNLESS you can show that my profession and experience does not match the theoretical and experiential revelation of salvation in God's Word.
Other than that, That is why faith is a GIFT of God that affirms the truth of God's Word to the individual experience as "faith" is another characteristic of "how" one can know = assurance (Jn. 6:64-65; "except it were given to him"; 1 Thes. 1:5 "in much assurance").
The same requirement to accept the revelation of Christ's finished work on the cross is the same requirement to know you are a child of God - faith in God's Word.Click to expand...Click to expand... -
HeirofSalvation Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
WOW!!!!! Biblicist...listen to yourself...You just posed your own argument....literally, your own personal argument here:
Originally Posted by The Biblicist
You will no doubt reply that my affirming it does not make it so as your denying it does not make it less than fact UNLESS you can show that my profession and experience does not match the theoretical and experiential revelation of salvation in God's Word.
Other than that, That is why faith is a GIFT of God that affirms the truth of God's Word to the individual experience as "faith" is another characteristic of "how" one can know = assurance (Jn. 6:64-65; "except it were given to him"; 1 Thes. 1:5 "in much assurance").
The same requirement to accept the revelation of Christ's finished work on the cross is the same requirement to know you are a child of God - faith in God's Word.Click to expand...
The BiblicistThe Biblicist said: ↑Quote:
Originally Posted by The Biblicist
You will no doubt reply that my affirming it does not make it so as your denying it does not make it less than fact UNLESS you can show that my profession and experience does not match the theoretical and experiential revelation of salvation in God's Word.
Other than that, That is why faith is a GIFT of God that affirms the truth of God's Word to the individual experience as "faith" is another characteristic of "how" one can know = assurance (Jn. 6:64-65; "except it were given to him"; 1 Thes. 1:5 "in much assurance").
The same requirement to accept the revelation of Christ's finished work on the cross is the same requirement to know you are a child of God - faith in God's Word.
Lets cut this to the chase! You are philosophically arguing that the Bible is a lie! The Bible explicitly and clearly says a person can know they have eternal life and are saved (1 Jn. 5:13) but you are philosophically arguing they cannot know that because such knowledge is subjective and inductive and therefore cannot be known for sure to anyone. Thus you are calling God's Word a lie!Click to expand...
Thus you are calling God's Word a lie!Click to expand...You are philosophically arguing that the Bible is a lie!Click to expand..."You will no doubt say...."Click to expand...Click to expand... -
HeirofSalvation Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
You should have simply waited for me to respond to your previous post, wherein I would simply have said that I generally agree with your conclusion and that that was basically all I was contending to begin with....But, no....the Straw man....This will be posted....repeatedly.
You have accused me of Witchcraft, and denying Bible Truth....No one has yet shown such umbrage before for no reason whatsoever. Examine yourself.
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