Featured Temporal Justification

Prove it.

Where's your Scripture. That's what the thread is meant to do, discuss Scripture, not opinions.

This is not a thread to bash Catholics. If all you're interested in is taking potshots, then find another thread, please. This is for the grownups.




God bless.

 

I would agree we see faith in the first event we see Abraham justified, and works in the second (Isaac's offering), however, look at both events and tell me whether Abraham was justified in an eternal sense.

That is the focus of the study.

As the OP suggests, I view both of these events as justification in the temporal sense, rather than the eternal:


Romans 3:23-26 King James Version

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


I see a distinction between being justified through the Redemption that is in Christ Jesus and being justified based on our faith, belief, and works.

Abraham believed God and it was accounted unto him as righteousness. What Abraham believed was not that Jesus Christ died in his stead, but that God would give him a son, and that through that son all nations/families of the earth would be blessed.

See what I mean?

Romans 3 declares Justification which is based on the shed blood (the death) of Christ, and Romans 4 is given as a precedent for being declared righteous apart from works. In other words, Paul is saying, "If you have a problem with what I am saying, that men are being justified freely by God without having to do anything, think about Abraham. Wasn't he justified without works?"

Note in v.26 that he says "Now, at this time, God is declaring justification based on the righteousness of Christ, that He might be just and justify those who believe on Christ." It denotes a difference between "There is none righteous" despite the fact men were declared righteous (Abraham being the example) as well as states the specific object of belief, Jesus Christ.

Noah and Abraham are two great examples of men declared just/righteous, yet because they were not privy to the Gospel (though they heard the Gospel, howbeit veiled), the object of their faith was other than the death, burial, and Resurrection of Christ.

Now, at this time (in this Age), God is declaring, not Abraham's righteousness because he believed God would give him a son and that his wife would bear despite her age, but Christ's righteousness.


God bless.

 

It is a complicated matter, lol.

But not one I don't think we can't work through.

Basically, I see a difference between Abraham being justified based on the Gospel in its veiled form (that God would give him a son all families of the earth would be blessed through) and God at this time declaring the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

In case you are not familiar with the doctrine I hold to, I take the position that men were not born again prior to the coming of the Comforter at Pentecost (and no I am not a Pentecostal because I used the word Pentecost, lol) when men began to be baptized into Christ. I do view Temporal Justification as significant to the eternal destinies of the Old Testament Saints, and that they were just as "saved" as you and I. However, the progression of salvation throughout Biblical History goes, in my view, hand in hand with the progression of revelation. In their day, for example, they awaited Messiah for salvation/redemption (whereas we receive Eternal Redemption during our lifetimes through Regeneration and Eternal Union with God). In our day, we await the redemption of our bodies. So neither group, we or they, have received the "end" of our salvation (which is ultimately the Eternal State).

The point is, they, and we, are saved, but we are saved at a different point in time in the progression.

They were saved based on their response to the revelation they received and their faith in it (just as we are), but they did not receive Eternal Redemption (which includes remission of sins on an eternal basis (and just so you know I use "eternal" in a context of within God's realm as opposed to the temporal)) until Christ actually died. We see that here:

Romans 3:23-26 King James Version

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

And here:

Hebrews 9:12-15 King James Version

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

That the sins of those under Law had not been redeemed on an eternal basis yet is also seen here:


Galatians 4:4-6 King James Version

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


So when we consider that despite the provision for remission of sins (animal sacrifice) in the (entire) Old Testament, the sins of all those justified still had to be redeemed by the Blood of Christ. They were declared righteous, yet despite that, the conclusion is...


Romans 3:10
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Not necessarily true...


Hebrews 10:17 King James Version

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.


... unless one is not saved.


God bless.

 

I would agree with the sentiment here, however, faith alone as a doctrinal position is in an entirely different context than that in which faith, hope, and love are contrasted. That is specifically directed at those who are saved, whereas sola fide is of a salvific context.

However, that is one of the reason for this thread, because in my view—sola fide is a bit misleading.

Let me explain: most today argue between faith alone and faith and works. And when they argue (and it usually is an argument), they attribute a salvific context to it, meaning, when they say men are justified by faith alone, or they say men are justified by faith and works, what their minds are thinking is Men are saved by faith alone or faith and works.

And the context of both James and Romans 4 is, in my view—temporal, not eternal.

I do believe that their faith and belief, which was generated by God (through His divine intervention and revelation), not an internal ability they had—saved them from an eternal perspective. They were every bit as saved as we are, but they died not receiving the promises of God. Promises such as the eternal indwelling of God, whereby men could walk in His statutes and judgments, and keep them (Ezekiel 36:27). Remission of sins on an eternal basis (Hebrews 10:17). Eternal Life while we are still physically alive.

As I said, I agree with the above sentiment, however, we cannot be saved by loving people. We can only be saved and receive His promises through the Cross of Christ, and His Resurrection.


God bless.

 

The above event, the Sheep and Goat judgment, does not justify (no pun intended) a position that salvation is based on works. One cannot be justified on an eternal basis based on loving people. One can only be justified on an eternal basis for loving Christ. Love for people will be a result of one's love for God. Atheists can love one another, and do charitable works, it won't result in justification on an eternal basis, because they have rejected the one thing that can justify on an eternal basis, faith in Christ Jesus:

This is the Scriptural basis you provide for your assertion:

Matt 25
“37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”


These are believers saved during the Tribulation. They are justified on an eternal basis because they are believers. The Sheep and Goat Judgment takes place prior to the establishment of the Millennial Kingdom, and while we know there is a deeper understanding to John 3, I would ask you to consider something:


John 3:3-5 King James Version

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


While you and I (and all born-again believers) can understand this in hindsight, having the benefit of the New Testament teachings, for Nicodemus "The Kingdom of God" was the promised Kingdom of Restored Israel. When the Lord asks him, "Art thou a teacher of Israel and knowest not these things?" He rebukes Nicodemus. Most will think that the Lord is saying Nicodemus should have understood what being born again meant, and in part that is true. However, in light of the fact that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was yet a Mystery that would not be revealed until the Comforter came—evidenced by the fact no disciple preached the revealed Gospel unit Pentecost—we must look at the statement within the historical context.

And if we do that, we see that Nicodemus would understand this to mean that no one would enter into that physical Kingdom Messiah would set up.

That is still true.

So when we look at the Sheep and Goat Judgment, we understand that all who enter into that physical Kingdom (the Millennial Kingdom) will be born-again believers. All born-again believers will be judged (1 Corinthians 3), truly, but they are not Justified on an eternal basis because of the works they did. They were justified freely through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.


God bless.

 

Again, I would agree to a certain extent, because Temporal Justification was a part of their salvation. It still remains that they were saved by grace through faith, but it equally remains that they were not eternally redeemed through the shed blood of Christ:

Faith is the only element seen in this instance of Temporal Justification:

Luke 18:9-14 King James Version

9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.


This man would still need for Christ to die in His stead so that he might be reconciled to God:


2 Corinthians 5:17-19 King James Version

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


Abraham was justified, however, he was not reconciled to God in his lifetime. He died awaiting the promises.

He was saved from the eternal perspective (God's), because his eternal destiny was secured by grace through faith. He was justified during his lifetime but had not received the Atonement nor was he reconciled to God. God performed His reconciliatory work in the Person of the Son through the Work of Christ.

So, yes, I think we can see an eternal aspect to Abraham's Temporal Justification, but I don't think we can equate that with the Eternal Justification accomplished through Christ. Abraham is now justified based on Christ's Righteousness alone. He was justified by faith alone in his lifetime because he believed God would give him a son. That is what the record of Scripture tells us:


Romans 4 King James Version

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.


13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.


16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,


17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.


18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.


19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:


20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;


21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.


22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.


Abraham did not have faith in the revealed Gospel of Christ, but the veiled Gospel of Christ. This is seen in this passage, as well as here:


Galatians 3:6-8 King James Version

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.


The revelation given to Abraham was the Gospel, to be sure, but Abraham could not understand it as we do. He understood exactly what Scripture tells us, that he believed God would give him a son and that all nations of the earth would be blessed through that seed.

He did not understand that the Seed was singular:


Galatians 3:16 King James Version

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


Would you concede that Abraham's understanding of the Gospel was limited to only understanding that all families of the earth would be blessed through his seed (and I'm narrowing in on the context of the Gospel, not saying this is the only promise given Abraham)?


God bless.

 

Mocking other members is not a worthy contribution to any discussion. If you don't have a heart for serious discussion at least don't interfere with those who do wish to have discussion.


God bless.

 

First, did you read what I posted? Have you no response for the specific points made?

Secondly, let's take a look at the virtues of a born-again believer:


2 Peter 1:4-5 King James Version

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;


...I can stop there.

Notice that those things which undergird good works power—to our faith?

So I must reiterate the point already made—you are blurring contexts. The temporal with the eternal, the fleshly with the spiritual.

No, the knowledge of Jesus Christ saved them. The knowledge of Jesus Christ is supplied to men, not through intellectual pursuit, but by direct revelation of God to the heart of the believer. That is the primary ministry of the Comforter, to convict men, first, of sin, then of righteousness, and then—of judgment.

The chicken came before the egg, my friend.

Continued...

 

So let me see if I am understanding your position correctly: you are saying no one is yet saved?

I'll start that issue with just one verse:

1 John 5:13 King James Version

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


I hope I have misinterpreted what you are saying, but If you are saying no one is saved yet, then my friend—you are denying the very Gospel of Jesus Christ.

John seems pretty sure that those who believe on Christ are saved. Unless you don't consider having eternal life as a reference to being saved?


Continued...