Temporary Salvationist 1-8

James_Newman]The persuading is in verse 10, and it is to Christians. What is the therefore there for? Whatever the terror is, it is at the judgment seat of Christ. -- Jim Newman

No, I have just learned that in the multitude of words there wanteth not sin.

Oh, we are going to persuade Christians at the JSOC? That is interesting! If the terror of the Lord is at the JSOC, how did they know the terror of the Lord not yet being there? Huh?-- Herb Evans



The same way I know it, Herb, by faith believing the word of God. I don't have to visit to know that hell is hot.

But James did not have any verse to rely to know what the terror is at the JSOC. He certainly doid not know anything about the killing of Christians at the JSOC by God, or the exclusion from the kingdom, and the other things that Faustites make up without scripture. -- Herb Evans


Why don't you explain what it means to be judged by the law of liberty? -- Jim Newman

Ah! Don't like me to verse fling without an explanation. Well, you fo first and exegete the one that you flung. -- Herb Evans

How about I address the one you think cancels out all the warnings of judgment.

James 2:10-13
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath showed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

What part of verse 12 makes you think that there will be no judgment for those that are judged by the law of liberty? -- Jim Newman

Any judgment Christians get by the law of liberty is here on earth, and not at the JSOC. But the Christian in this law of liberty escapes the "offending in one point" judgment in regard to salvation. I thought you even believe that. Of course, you think differently in regard to the kingdom. Or do you believe that Christians will be judged for their sins in regard to eternal salvation? Do you believe an adulterer Christian or a murderer Christian cannot have eternal salvation? Let's here your liberal answer on that?-- Herb Evans

Why do you think that the judgment without mercy in verse 13 will not be carried out under the law of liberty? Should the standard be less strict for one who has been freed from sin?

Oh yes, the standard is much less strict in regard to saved and free Christians. Judgment, however, is carried out under the "law of liberty" in that some are sick and some sleep. The judgment of Anannias and Saphira was pretty harsh in that God killed them for the sin unto death. -- Herb Evans

Matthew 5:27-28
27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: (The law of Moses)
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. (Could this be the law of liberty?)

Don't ask me! Tell me! Then, I will respond. I know you do not like to commit too much. -- Herb Evans

 

Again, you cannot characterize my comments correctly; you always skew them into a straw man of your own making. I never said that there was no judgment at the JSOC. The judgment is on a person's works at the JSOC not the person. That was taken care of at Calvary. Jesus bore my sin judgment there. -- Herb Evans

 

So now we are going to run to the other side. If you aren't working, you aren't really a believer.

Never said that! That is your characterization of what I said. You aren't really a believer if you have a dead faith. A workless faith. -- Herb Evans
Whatever, Herb, you're going to say it again two paragraphs down.

I'll have to look. -- Herb Evans

Never mind that you argued that a believer can sin like the devil and still inherit the kingdom.

Yes, never mind that, for it is true for salvation and the kingdom, but for some reason, you think that the kingdom is more serious than eternal salvation in your 2 plan of salvation thingie! -- Herb Evans

You just have to have good works first, to prove you are a believer.

Well, if you accept folks' claim of salvation without any works, all the power to you. be my guest.

Of course you don't accept folks' claim of salvation without any works, because you believe that you have to have works to be saved.

No, I don't accept them as believers, because I do not see any evidence of salvation. I don't see any evidence of your salvation. You could not be a member of my church. I am not the judge of salvation; God is. I am responsible to what I see and hear. -- Herb Evans

It may be the most meager of works, but if I say I have faith but don't prove it through my actions, my faith is dead and is not really faith. So believing on the finished work of Christ is not sufficient, I have to add works to my faith to make it 'saving faith'. I'm on to your game, Herb. You say you believe in salvation by faith alone, but you don't really.

Again, you are a liar. I am on to your game of misrepresentation with straw men. I do believe in salvation by faith through grace alone. But that same grace teaches us how to live. The finished work of Christ is sufficient for salvation AND the kingdom. Lie about me and I will call you a liar.

Tit. 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; -- Hreb Evans

I don't accept your claim to salvation or the kingdom due to your wicked false doctrine and heresy. To me that is worse than any bad works that you have done. -- Herb Evans

So we work for our eternal salvation, and the kingdom is thrown in for free like the prize in a happy meal.

Where in the world are you getting that. I don't work for either eternal salvation or kingdom salvation in your second plan. Are you that blind that you can't grasp that? -- Herb Evans

Thats pretty funny, Herb. How many works do I have to have to prove I am saved? The truth is a workless faith is still faith, even if it is 'dead, being alone'. Do we get saved by 'faith alone' or do we get saved by faith plus works?

What is funny is your failure to both comprehend the scriptures and me, if it were not so tragic. No dead faith and workless faith is not faith at all, the point that James is trying get through to some folks that are merely claiming it. -- Herb Evans

So how many works do I have to have to prove I am saved? Better yet, show me your works so I can know that I am debating a brother in Christ, and not a wolf in sheeps clothing. All I know about Herb Evans is that he claims to be saved by the blood of Jesus, but he could be a false professor if he doesn't have works to prove he is really saved.

You do not have to prove to me that you are saved. I don't have to prove to a heretic anything. I refuse to accept you as anything but a heretic that should be rejected, and that is enough. Again, in case you are hard of reading, we get saved by faith alone, not by faith plus works. Works are a by product of saving faith. The same grace that saves-- teaches us how to live. You are starting to repeat yourself over and over. I am not going to answer the same questions over and over.-- Hreb Evans

 

Quote:
I don't accept your claim to salvation or the kingdom due to your wicked false doctrine and heresy. To me that is worse than any bad works that you have done. -- Herb Evans

You have no concept of a false prophet or false doctrine. To you, bad morality is worse. You do not think that you are going to be judged for your False doctrine (wherever). Therefore, I am unable to give you any light at all. You minimize the death of Christ and create two plans of salvation, requiring works for the kingdom but none for eternal salvation (as I do so you don't mirepresent me again). You did not get your false teaching from the Lord, you got it from a man. I happened to be around, when this false teaching first started a few years ago. -- Herb Evans

 

All chapters of Heretic Faust's book, The Rod, are critiqued here.
Interesting reading! The website is a mid trib web site, however. -- Herb
Evans

http://p079.ezboard.com/bthemidweekrapture

 

No, you are unable to give me any light because you don't have any. You deny that the blood of Christ can make a child of God holy, or that God requires obedience from His children, and you can't point out a single example of how this doctrine causes sin in the life of one who believes it other than to say that believing it is sin in itself. I knew you were old, Herb, but somehow I doubt you were there at the beginning. You know perfectly well that my pastor did not invent this doctrine himself. If you want to say that it is a doctrine of men, you should at least acknowledge all the men that have taught it.

 

I have plenty of verses.

Matthew 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Where is your scripture that says no Christian is judged after death? Eternal salvation is finished, all you have to do is believe. You don't even have to pretend to want to repent of your sins. But that does not mean you automatically inherit every blessing promised to obedient children of God.

No the standard is not less strict, God holds Christians to a higher level of accountability than He will hold those that went before. Especially Christians who have a perfect bible preserved for them to tell them what God expects from them. We aren't going to be able to say we weren't warned. Judgments such as Anannias and Saphira were pretty harsh, but you must have surely noticed that there are many in the churches today sinning greater sins than they and God hasn't killed them yet. God is longsuffering, but if a man does not take advantage of that mercy, there will be a reckoning. Anannias and Sapphira were an example to the church, and the church feared. But it seems to me the church has stopped fearing, Herb.

 

So your works are going to be punished. I hope they get whats coming to them.

Luke 3:9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Why doesn't this say that the bad fruit is cast into the fire?

 

Lets try this again. If 'true faith' is a 'faith that works', then that means a person who possesses 'true faith' will have 'works', does it not? That is what you are trying to say, isn't it? If that is true, then you cannot believe that a 'true believer' can be saved and not have works. Therefore, 'faith alone' by its very definition, cannot save you. What did James say was dead? Faith, without works, being 'alone'. 'Faith alone' is dead faith that cannot save, by your own confession.

 

Dr. Evans,

While it is not my desire to get involved in this slugfest, I do have a question or two for you, if I may.

According to the Kingdom Baptist website, Pastor Faust has invited you to debate this matter:

"After Herb Evans wrote numerous articles and e-mails against my book, I offered to debate him on the subject in a formal manner. It is in a formal debate that the weaknesses of a position can be adequately manifested. Herb Evans has consistently refused to debate the issue of the Judgment Seat of Christ in a formal manner." (Source: http://www.kingdombaptist.org/anotherevans.cfm)​

Have you, in fact, received a challenge(s) to a formal debate and if so, for what cause would you reject it? If you are so passionate as to speak out on this forum as much as you do and point to other forums for one sided discussion on Fausts' book, then would you not be passionate enough to face the man directly to refute his postions? If he's a heretic, then surely a face to face challenge would give you an opportunity to demonstrate his errors.

If it is a money issue, I will be glad to reimburse you for your gas out to Texas and it would be an honor to feed you and give you a place to rest during your stay.

I would look forward to hearing a live discussion of these competing views and I look forward to your response.

 

And I would be willing to help Rufus_1611 with the financial obligations that would ensue as I too would be interested in sitting in on such a conversation.

 

Wow! you have really held up well for a man over 150 years old!

What was Govett really like? Man, what a blessing just to drink from your well.

Love Lacy, the Ruckmanite, Faustite, Govettite, Whatever-ite.

 

I don't have to formally debate no dad-burned heretic. What in tarnation do you think Ima doing here? Joey D Faust aint a-fit ta shine mah spurs! Blah! Blah! Blah!

Not-Herb Evans

 

The truth of the matter is that your pastor, heretic Faust collected a bunch of quotes together from the past for his book and manipulated them together to seem like they were teaching what he was teaching. In fact, only one or two reputable men ever even hinted at believers spending time in hell fire other than Catholics.

You don't even mean that the blood of Christ makes anything but the new nature holy. You are really saying that you through works make yourself holy, while admittin that you sin and sin wilfully. Your sinful flesh is still sinful. The old man is still the old man after salvation. Some time I will make a list of what Joey Faust teaches (by his own quotes) and demand quotes from any reputable Christian of the past. I do not have that kind of time now. However, you could save me some time and give me a few of them that say that a Christian goes to hell fire during the Millennium. -- Herb Evans

 

The truth of the matter is that Joey Faust challenged me by e-mail to a debate long before that. Now, at that time I had rejected and disfellowhipped him as a heretic and realized that he was trying to capitalize on my noteriety to promote his doctrine. I declined then to debate a heretic, and I decline now. However, I did bebate him via e-mail and I have the CD of that debate for sale for $ 5.00. It is long and I am sure there is nothing new since then.

Now, Jeff Nachimson took up Heretic Joey's challenge but Joey chicked out of it using Jeff' student status at Ruckman's as an excuse. I am sure that he would be more than happy to oblige whoever wants a debate. -- Hreb Evans

 

I guess you have lost your taste for point/counterpoint discussion and are trying a selective pick and choose method, leaving so many of my points unanswered. I will not allow this type of selective debate. This one time I will answer the above.

Now, you are reducing this debate to philisophical discussion and reasoning. James said that the devils believe and tremble. Do they have a true, saving faith? The thief on the cross was saved with the single work of his testimony. He was promised paradise.

When a true believer gives testimony that Christ is his Saviour, it is a single work. How many works do you think that a believer should have to be a true believer? Faith alone saves, but that same grace that saves him through faith also teaches that believer how to live as I referenced previously.

However, the dead CLAIMED FAITH of a false professor, as in James,does not save alone or even with an abundance of works. Nevertheless, a true believer has no outward works when he is first saved, so yes, a true believer can be saved by faith alone and without works. How were you saved? By faith alone or by faith plus your works. But for your benefit, believing is a work. -- Herb Evans

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. -- John 6:29


The best part of this is that you fellows switch from eternal salvation to Kingdom salvation and back again. So, answer this, does faith alone procure eternal salvation or not? -- Herb Evans

 

Lacy, you certainly are brave in your one liners. I happened to know that you endorsed Heretic Faust's book, so I am assuming that you are part of the overcomers' cult. -- Herb Evans

 

Well, you took the words right out of my mouth from a couple of years back. The fact is Heretic Faust and I did debate via e-mail. Wanna buy the CD for $ 5.00 and save the expense of a formal debate? But Jeff Nachimson is salivating to debate Joey, but Joey called it off. -- Herb EVan