Temporary Salvationist 1-8

Dr. Evans,

I have read a few of your articles in the past, have found them to be insightful and I appreciate your defense of the AV.

However, until today, I would not have considered you to be notorious or at least so notorious that you are above sitting and reasoning together with a fellow believer. You have accused Joey Faust of attempting to capitalize on your notoriety, yet you desire to sell a CD of an e-mail exchange with him for $5.00? How much would it cost people if they asked you to click the forward button?

Further, do you have a Biblical argument for rejecting a challenge to confront the one you accuse of being a heretic? Paul confronted the heathen at Mars Hill and debated with them. Paul also confronted Peter face to face and "before them all" when Peter was in error. What is so unique about this difference in interpretation of scripture which precludes you from girding up your loins and facing the one you are accusing? We can even tape the debate, drop a link on this board and add to your notoriety.

My offer stands, you are always welcome in Texas.

Your brother in Christ and believer in Kingdom Accountability "heresy" / "Overcomers cult",

Jeff Hembd

 

No, I have lost the taste for trying to pick your points out of the long list of points that you previously pointed out. If you would use the quote function, this would be a lot easier to read. But I'll try to do better. Maybe you could start highlighting the important parts in bold flashing pink text or put one of these next to them.:thumbs:

Heaven forbid I should reason in a debate. I promise I will get back to name calling shortly. But what of these devils? They believe there is one God and tremble. What has that got to do with the gospel of Jesus Christ? But it does illustrate a point. The thief on the cross was not saved by his work, he was saved by faith same as anybody. What did the thief on the cross believe to be saved? Did he suddenly have an epiphany and realize that there was only one God?? Devils can't believe the gospel and be saved because the gospel is not for devils!

That thief on the cross could have been saved even if he had never opened his mouth. But he may not have gone to paradise.

John 12:42-43
42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

Why didn't that grace teach these men to confess Him?

That's strange, because apparently the works is the only difference between the two. How would a 'believer' know that he had true saving faith if even his works are not evidence??? But I understand why you have to have a 'false professor' to pin all these warnings on.

Even if that verse does mean that in some sense believing was a work, it is not a work in the sense of working for salvation. Rather I believe Jesus was pointing out the need for faith in pleasing God. One cannot work the works of God without first believing. We must compare this verse with Romans 4:5.
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
So in whatever sense believing is a 'work', it is not a work in the sense of Romans 4.

Absolutely. Dead cold mental assent will get your name listed in the book of life on the last day.

 

It is not a matter of my noteriety; it is matter of someone capitalizing on what ever noteriety that I have. Obviously Faust now has noteriety. But thfact that I have formerly broke fellowship with him and rejected him as a heretic is the primary reason that I gave him years ago. If a person believes that any born again Christian goes to hell fire, he is not my brother in Christ. He is a heretic. Like Paul, I would rather confront an heathen than a heretic. I am supposed to reject hereitics after the second admonition. I gave Faust much more than that. As for the CD, I don't desire to sell it, I make it available to folks that want it often giving it away. I make no money on it. The debate CD is there and covers it all.
-- Herb Evans

 

Originally Posted by Herb Evans
I guess you have lost your taste for point/counterpoint discussion and are trying a selective pick and choose method, leaving so many of my points unanswered. I will not allow this type of selective debate. This one time I will answer the above.



No, I have lost the taste for trying to pick your points out of the long list of points that you previously pointed out. If you would use the quote function, this would be a lot easier to read. But I'll try to do better. Maybe you could start highlighting the important parts in bold flashing pink text or put one of these next to them.

Like that? -- Herb Evans

Quote:
Quote:
Now, you are reducing this debate to philisophical discussion and reasoning. James said that the devils believe and tremble. Do they have a true, saving faith? The thief on the cross was saved with the single work of his testimony. He was promised paradise. --Herb Evans


Heaven forbid I should reason in a debate. I promise I will get back to name calling shortly. But what of these devils? They believe there is one God and tremble. What has that got to do with the gospel of Jesus Christ? But it does illustrate a point.

Yes, it illustrates what James is talking about, and James links it to it. -- Herb Evans

The thief on the cross was not saved by his work, he was saved by faith same as anybody.

Ah! My point exactly. he had no works to speak of but was saved by faith alone. I'm glad that we agree here. -- Herb Evans

What did the thief on the cross believe to be saved? Did he suddenly have an epiphany and realize that there was only one God?? Devils can't believe the gospel and be saved because the gospel is not for devils!

Great point! It matters what one believes! This thief evidently believed correctly to go to paradise. Evidently, those in James did not believe the right thing wither. -- Herb Evans

Quote:

When a true believer gives testimony that Christ is his Saviour, it is a single work. How many works do you think that a believer should have to be a true believer? Faith alone saves, but that same grace that saves him through faith also teaches that believer how to live as I referenced previously.

That thief on the cross could have been saved even if he had never opened his mouth. But he may not have gone to paradise.

Good! That is what I believe. But you believe that his faith without works gets him in trouble per James. -- Herb Evans

John 12:42-43
42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

Why didn't that grace teach these men to confess Him?

It did, but they did not obey. Does that make their faith void per James? Or do they miss the kingdom and go to hell fire? -- Herb Evans

Quote:

Quote:

However, the dead CLAIMED FAITH of a false professor, as in James,does not save alone or even with an abundance of works.


That's strange, because apparently the works is the only difference between the two. How would a 'believer' know that he had true saving faith if even his works are not evidence??? But I understand why you have to have a 'false professor' to pin all these warnings on.

Well, I knew it when I was first saved. The Bible tells us that a person that believes has the witness in himself. Did that not happen to you? That is the difference -- the Holy Spirit. -- Herb Evans

Quote:
Nevertheless, a true believer has no outward works when he is first saved, so yes, a true believer can be saved by faith alone and without works. How were you saved? By faith alone or by faith plus your works. But for your benefit, believing is a work. -- Herb Evans Quote:

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. -- John 6:29


Even if that verse does mean that in some sense believing was a work, it is not a work in the sense of working for salvation. Rather I believe Jesus was pointing out the need for faith in pleasing God. One cannot work the works of God without first believing. We must compare this verse with Romans 4:5.

OH? It is the only work that gets you salvation. Anything else FOR salvation subtracts from it. -- Hreb Evans


Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

So in whatever sense believing is a 'work', it is not a work in the sense of Romans 4.

That is a passage that you have to deal with not I. The believing is the only work that gets counted as righteousness. The working for salvation in Romans 4:5 goes against salvation, like Faustite go against your kingdom plan of salvation, because it is not of works either lest any man should boast. --Herb Evans

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The best part of this is that you fellows switch from eternal salvation to Kingdom salvation and back again. So, answer this, does faith alone procure eternal salvation or not? -- Herb Evans


Absolutely.

Well, at least we agree on one point.


Dead cold mental assent will get your name listed in the book of life on the last day.

It is the false doctrine baggage that you tie on to it that is the problem. Cold mental assent will put you in the Lake of fire. -- Herb Evans

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herb Evans
Originally Posted by James_Newman
So your works are going to be punished. I hope they get whats coming to them.

Well, again the Faustite circular reasoning. Neither my works or myself are going to be "PUNISHED." Get that? -- Herb Evans

Luke 3:9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Why doesn't this say that the bad fruit is cast into the fire?

Again, you fellows are like Campbellites who see baptism every tim ethat they find water in the BIBLE. Yet Faustites see believers in the fire, every time they see fire. Was John talking about hell fire for believers here or was he talking about the lost Vipers that did not have fruits meet for repentance that he refused baptsim to. Man, you are a wrester of the scriptures, Jim. -- Herb Evans


I'm just trying to figure out what you mean when you say your works will be judged but not you. How does God judge the works without judging the worker? Sounds like a bunch of double-talk to me.

Well, that is very simple. He says the work is bad or the work is good. The worker was judged at calvary. There is no punishment or stripes at the JSOC. My purgatory was on Calvary, where Jesus was purged for every bad thing I ever did or will do in regard to salvation. You don't believe that? -- Herb Evans


When did I say the judgment seat of Christ had anything to do with a believer's final salvation? Of course Jesus bore our sins on the cross.

You didn't; I did. Only saved believers will be at the JSOC, and saved believres' sins have already been judged, past, poresent, and future. You are trying to tell me that only your past sins were paid for at Calvary. Is that true?

But that does not mean that there is no punishment at the judgment seat of Christ.

That does mean that there is no punishment at the JSOC. Now, that we have traded pontifications, let us continue. -- Herb Evans

You have never shown a verse that says a believer cannot be punished at the judgment seat of Christ. You just says so, so its so, aint that so? If Jesus' death on the cross supposedly wiped out every penalty for sin, . . .

Jesus did wipe pout every sin for salvation. Don't you believe that. Past sin, present, sin, and future sin!

If you would have told me that there are people on Mars and asked me to provide you a scripture that denied it, I would tell you to go pound salt. I am not rewuired to prove a negative, something that does not exist. The burden of proof is on you, who have not shown a verse that proves that they are punished there. Faustites do not provide scripture for punishment at the JSOC, being killed at the JSOC, or believers being cast into hell fire. They only provide certain scriptures that they force to intimate such things by their rhetoric. -- Herb Evans

. . .well you have never adequately explained why it is that God can chasten His children for sins in this life.

Well, that is simple. Jesus did not die to save my old sinful body or flesh; He died for my soul and spirit. That is why he only chastens my sinful body. My sinful body will rot and turn to dust, because it is not saved. My new body will not sin. -- Herb Evans

 

Much better. It makes you seem friendlier too.

No, the thief did have works. He had the confession of his lips, and with his remaining life he defended his Lord as best he could. That is why the Lord told him that he would be in paradise.

Who is they? James was talking to believers, warning them not to despise the poor. That was the faith without works he was talking about.
James 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

James 2:14-17
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

The 'profit' is for believers. If a believer does not provide for his brother or sister in need, that is having faith without works according to James. You seem to think that means they didn't believe that Jesus died for their sins. Do you really think a believer cannot be selfish and withhold good from his brother? I think more likely it means they didn't believe they could be judged for not providing for the needs of their poor brethren.

The thief did what he could.

If believing on the Lord is how you get saved, then they are saved. But they will not be rewarded (good rewards) for dissembling. You tell me what happens to them.

So you are trusting in some feeling you got to be sure you are really a believer? How subjective. Can you describe the feeling so I can make sure I got the right one? All this time I have been telling people that the bible was true and that believing it was their assurance.

You ought to stop reading John Macarthur.

 

Thats not true. But it sounds pious.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I have to go home again for the weekend. I may jump on if I happen to be near an internet connection, otherwise I will see you again on Monday, Herb. God bless you, brother. I hope you know that even though we disagree, I appreciate you as a brother and I enjoy discussing this with you. You can call me a heretic if you like.

 

Both are true. My new body will be preserved. Are you trying to say that my old body will be preserved? That stinking rotting sinful body? Until the coming of the Lord Jesus? It begins to rot in less than a week. Wow, you are warped. -- Herb Evans

 

You old trickster! Why in the sam hill are you debating Brother James then? And why don't you try that "If you don't believe like me, then you are not a real Christian" mess here where there are moderators? See if it works outside your little web-ring.

Lacy

PS. How can you be sure Faust is not a Lacy-ite? My mention of Govett seemed to quiet the "I've been here since that doctrine was born" stuff. So call me names. It happens every time someone (after about five minutes) runs out of rational, Biblical arguments. When I argue for the KJV I'm a Ruckmanite. Whatever. Silly sticks and stones my friend.

Lacy

 

Good afternoon. I refuse to label Faust that, he is heretic. Because I highly respect him, because he is truly God-fear person. He loves the Lord, and serve him serious. Also, he have burden to warn his brothers and sisters in Christ about the judgment day. He did the right thing. I do NOT consider that Faust misleading Christians of his teaching, long as he urges them to be faithfully to the Lord.

I still not agree with Faust and Whipple's teaching. Millennial exclusion teaching is unbiblical. Once for a person to die, then a person is ALREADY appointed for the judgment, there is no another second chance beyond death according Hebrews 9:27.

Nowhere in the Scripture saying that an unfaithful or backslidder will be finally being released out of the everlasting fire beyond the judgment day.

Faust saw conditional passages with warning in Bible, yet, he believes in security salvation. I do not find security salvation doctrine in the Bible. There is so much overhwlemed proofs of conditional passages in the Bible, these cannot be unconditional security salavtion.

For example -Matt. 25:30 tells us, an evil servant shall be cast away into outer darkness. It does not saying that an evil servant shall be finally being released out of the outer darkness beyond the judgment day. Most Christians have good common sense that 'outer darkness' is obivous speak of everlasting punishment which, it is speak of hell. Nowhere in the Scripture saying that outer dakrness is a temporary.

Also, 'second death' is NOT a temporary.

Nowhere in the Scripture saying that 'kingdom' is a temporary, or it is so called, 'a thousand years of kingdom'.

John 3:3 is a good example of 'kingdom'. Christ doesn't saying that a perosn must be born again to enter millennial kingdom. He was talking about SALVATION as gospel well. Remember that Pharisee asked Christ privately of John chapter 3, clearly, he was lost and not yet become disciple of Christ. That why, Christ witnessed to him of salvation. He told him, he must be born again, or cannot have eternal life. Simple and plain.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Lacy Evans]You old trickster! Why in the sam hill are you debating Brother James then? And why don't you try that "If you don't believe like me, then you are not a real Christian" mess here where there are moderators? See if it works outside your little web-ring.

Well, you characterize my comments as that, but I never said that. That is a straw man of your making. I get along with many Christians that do not believe as I do. But heresy is something different.

After disfellowshipping Joey Faust, I treated him as a heathen man and a publican. Whether he is a brother in Christ, I know not. But I refuse to treat him as one. The reason that I am debating James is for the same reason that I debated Faust, so that folks could know what they teach and the dangers of it. I do not debate them to win a debate; I debate them to expose what they teach to others. -- Herb Evans

Lacy

PS. How can you be sure Faust is not a Lacy-ite? My mention of Govett seemed to quiet the "I've been here since that doctrine was born" stuff. So call me names. It happens every time someone (after about five minutes) runs out of rational, Biblical arguments. When I argue for the KJV I'm a Ruckmanite. Whatever. Silly sticks and stones my friend.

Lacy

Well, I get called a Ruckmanite also. Get used to it and get over it. Still, up until now, I have not seen any of your biblical arguments. It does not seem that you want to commit yourself publically. Faust crows about Govett in his book; I read that a few years back. So what?-- Herb Evans

 

Herb, Newman,

Excuse me. Can you do a favor me , please? I have little bit hard time to read quotes with very bright color letters. Can you please edit them to little darker or bold letter. Red and blue both would be better for us to read quotes rather than pink and very bright green. I hope that you have to respect to another readers' because never know some of them have hard time to read letters or words with very bright colors. Please be fair with one other. Black words or letter is the BEST thing for every readers are able to read them better.

Next time, when you type quotes, please use any colors which are little darker or bold instead of very bright green or pink, ok? THANKS!! :saint:

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Friend, I cannot please every one. James requested that I do that rather than the bold colors that I was using, because he could not discern the past posts from the present ones. I'll see what I can do. -- Herb Evans

 

Herb.

Please be careful what you saying. I know Ruckman well. I am not KJVO or Ruckmanism. I dislike his attitude. He acts like as Pharisee, he thinks he knows everything and always criticize or judge against borhters in Christ. Hiself got divorced three or four times already. Huh? That is his bad testimony. I have no respect for him. Is Ruckman a heretic? Well, let God judges him. Many things that I do not agree with Ruckman's teachings. I do consider that he is a truly brother in Christ, cuz, he believes in Christ. BUT.....

Wait and see find out at the judgment seat of Christ.

If you continue label Faust as 'heretic'. I think moderators of baptistboard would consider to closed this thread. Next time, please be careful, what you saying. Ok. Thanks. :saint:

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Herb,

Pardon me, where's your respect?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Personally I put the post into a .TXT file and all
color & bolding dissappear. However, i can usually
tell folk's who write more than one sentence apart
buy the words they use & what they say.

BTW even on the BB reading files, you can select text
and it changes color :)

 

As far as I can tell* unless Faust is a posting member of BB
then Herb is free to call him 'heretic'. However, I have the right
to dispute Herb's opinion as often as I wish. I've seen
better Christians than Faust called 'heretic' on the BB by worse
people than Herb (not to mention any names, which I of course
cannot).

BTW, you can't make a car that is spinning it's wheels on the ice
get loose by stepping on the gas -- it just makes the wheels
spin all the faster :(

 

Dur! That was my point. Sticks and stones.

That must mean that I have never stated my views publically? Seeing a man with your noteriety has never seen them.


http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=33303

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=33992

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=33712

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=33916

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=34368

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=34142

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=34495

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=34368

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=15167

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=34375

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=34252

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=33871

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=33158

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=32617

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=1862

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=1503

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=29296

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=29219

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=15161

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=29197


Happy reading.

Lacy