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Featured The Atonement of Christ: What did it REALLY Achieve ?6

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Brightfame52, Sep 14, 2022.

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  1. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Christs death covered all them who He turns them from their sins, thats the blessing of Abraham, which is Salvation Lk 1:72-74

    72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

    73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

    74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
     
  2. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    They were saved by Him giving His Life, His suffering unto death, that healed/saved them.
     
  3. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    BF you are really starting to go of the range on this. You are so desperate to prove your point that you are now not even beiong logical. If we took those verses as you are trying to use them then that would mean that all of Israel has been saved, not just some of the descendants of Abraham but all of them.

    Admit it BF your view does not hold water.
     
  4. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    So you are going to keep denying scripture. Sad really really sad. This just shows how desperate you have become.
     
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Does Acts of the Apostles 3:26 really say Christ turns everyone He died for from iniquity? 2 Peter 2:1 says Christ bought a person heading for swift destruction. Sounds like Christ died for someone never turned from iniquity. Go figure.
     
  6. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    silverhair

    Israel is everyone who has been saved, regardless of ethnicity. Im not and that scripture isnt about the physical nation of israel, sorry !
    All of Abrahams spiritual not physical descendants shall be saved/redeemed, those who belonged to Christ regardless of ethnicity sir Gal 3:29

    29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed[Israel], and heirs according to the promise.

    Do you think just abrahams physical descendants are meant here? Absolutely not ? Gentiles belong to Christ too !
     
  7. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Im affirming scripture sir. What do you think 1 Pet 2:24 is, the funny papers or something. In fact its testified in and from the OT scriptures Isa 53:5

    5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

    The word
    with here means along with, accompanying, in other words, with His stripes, culminating in His death, along with it came spiritual healing and forgiveness. Ps 103:3

    Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;

    Paul when writing to the Romans he wrote Rom 8:32

    He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

    With Christ God freely gives us all things. The word freely here means also forgiveness. Its the greek word charizomai:

    to do something pleasant or agreeable (to one), to do a favour to, gratify

    1. to show one's self gracious, kind, benevolent

    2. to grant forgiveness, to pardon

    3. to give graciously, give freely, bestow

      1. to forgive
    So with Christs death comes healing, forgiveness. Its impossible for anyone Christ died for, not to be forgiven, healed, saved ! If you deny this, you deny the power of Christs Cross, and thats not a good number to be in friend. It reminds me of Pauls statement:

    2 Tim 3:5


    Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
     
  8. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    BF you had better read Luke1:72-74 in context, it is Zechariah's Prophecy about his son John the Baptist and how he, John, would would point the Jews to the Messiah. So those verses are about the nation of Israel, sorry.

    I have been telling you that it is only those that trust in Christ Jesus that will be saved and have shown you a number of verses that show this but you still will not accept that truth. Man has to trust, God does not do it for him. You know hear the gospel believe the gospel and God saves.
     
  9. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    You keep trying to prove your calvinist view that the atonement saves rather than trust what the bible says. The bible tells us that it is His life that saves, why do you not accept this truth?

    BF you have misused the scriptures as a means of supporting your errant view. That is so sad. You seem to think I do not know and believe the verses you post. I have no problem with scripture, whereas you do not accept clear scripture but rather try to find verses to deny what the bible says.

    Look at the statement you just made " Its impossible for anyone Christ died for, not to be forgiven, healed, saved !" and then look at the bible

    Rom 5:6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
    Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
    1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,
    Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
    1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
    1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

    Now think through what you just said " Its impossible for anyone Christ died for, not to be forgiven, healed, saved !" Well since we were all ungodly sinners that fell short of the glory of God and since He died as a ransom for all of us ungodly sinners then by your on words you are a universalist.

    But what does the bible tell us about who is saved?
    Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
    Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
    Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
    Act 16:30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
    Act 16:31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."
    Rom 10:13 For "WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED."
    Joh 20:31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
    Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

    Those that hear the gospel and believe the gospel will be saved
    Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

    The authority is the bible not your man-made philosophy. You struggle way to hard to deny what the bible tells us.
     
  10. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    silver

    I have already, thats how i found the verse.

    You wrong, it includes gentiles, its the blessing of Abraham, in Vs 73,79

    73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

    79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

    The covenant oath to Abraham was a blessing for nations Gen 12:3;17:4-5

    3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

    4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

    5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

    John also taught that Christ[the lamb of God] took away the sin of the world, not jews only Jn 1:29, thats in accordance with the blessing of Abraham


    All who believe are the seed of Abraham Gal 3:29
    29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    These are they who Christ blessed and turned away from their sins Acts 3:25-26

    25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

    26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
     
  11. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    With Christs death comes healing, the forgiveness of sins. Now how were they healed according to 1 Peter 2:24

    Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

    Isa 53:5

    5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.


    Healed also means conversion, all whom Christ died for shall be converted to God !
     
  12. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    On this side of the cross we would understand that but what would the Jews of that time understood?

    BF you are so focused on Abraham that you continue to overlook the Seed of Abraham, Christ Jesus. What are you trying to prove, that Christ was a Jew?

    BF you are putting the focus on Abraham rather than Christ. The Seed of Abraham is Christ Jesus. We have to be in Him to be saved. Many Jews, who came from Abrahams physical seed, are not saved. Jews and Gentiles that are in the spiritual Seed of Abraham are saved. Note even a verse you quoted 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
    Only those that are "in Him" through faith are considered to be part of Abraham's spiritual seed.

    Gal 3:7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.

     
    #32 Silverhair, Sep 18, 2022
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2022
  13. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Well since Christ died for the ungodly sinners and He was a ransom for all then you are clearly saying you are a universalist."all whom Christ died for shall be converted to God" You can deny that charge but until you start trusting what the bible says rather than your man-made religion you will remain a universalist.
     
  14. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    silver

    Thats impossible, The Blessing of Abraham comes by Christ. Its Christ who blessed the people by turning them from their sins. You are fighting against that, thus fighting against Christ work
     
  15. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    People believe because they experience the blessing of Abraham, which came through Christ death Gal 3:8-9

    And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

    So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
     
  16. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Christ died only for the ungodly who were healed by His stripes ! Unless you deny that His stripes heal like Peter and Isaiah testify to.
     
  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Acts of the Apostles 3:25-26 (NASB)
    “It is you who are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant which God ordained with your fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘AND IN YOUR SEED ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE EARTH SHALL BE BLESSED.’

    “God raised up His Servant for you first, and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways.”

    Lets see if we can unpack this passage.
    Verse 25
    1) Who is the "you" who are "sons" or "children" of the prophets and "covenant?" The children of Abraham, not all those among the bloodline, but those whose faith in God resulted in obtaining "approval" per Hebrews 11.

    2) Of course "your seed" singular refers to Jesus and Jesus alone.

    3) All the families shall be blessed because Jesus became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole of humanity.
    Verse 26
    1) The "You" of "you first" again refers to believers among Abraham's descendants, i.e. "first to the Jew."

    2) "His Servant" is an interesting translation as the word refers to a child who does as His Father tells Him.

    3) So those blessed by Jesus turning them from sin are the believers who had obtained approval.​

    Therefore this passage does not provide a shred of support for universalism or Limited Atonement.
     
    #37 Van, Sep 20, 2022
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2022
  18. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    The blessing of Abraham is salvation. So it's limited to the saved.
     
  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Not how the passage reads.
    "all the families of the earth."

    Gal 3:14
    in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.​

    According to scripture, one of the blessings of Abraham is received by anyone and everyone God transfers into Christ Jesus spiritually. Another blessing would be the land given to Abraham. (Gen. 28:4).
     
  20. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    With His Stripes ye are healed !

    1 Pet 2:24

    24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

    This scripture, perhaps more than any other, does inform us of the effects of the Death of Christ alone , for all whom He died, Tasted Death for Heb 2:9 for that is what stripes stand for, His Death, and by that the Inspired Apostle wrote " Ye are Healed " , which in its complete sense means " Ye were saved" ! The word healed here iaomai means:

    I.
    to cure, heal

    II.
    to make whole
    A.
    to free from errors and sins, to bring about (one's) salvation

    To Bring about something means:

    to produce as an effect; bring about; accomplish; make happen

    So its plainly being stated by Inspiration that Christ's Stripes, meaning His Death produced, and effected your Salvation, made you whole !

    This cannot be denied without grave and serious consequences !
     
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