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Featured The Atonement of Christ: What did it REALLY Achieve ?6

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Brightfame52, Sep 14, 2022.

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  1. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Why do you continue to deny what the bible says. We are saved by His life.
    1Co 15:12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
    1Co 15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen.
    1Co 15:14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.
    1Co 15:15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise.
    1Co 15:16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.
    1Co 15:17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!
     
  2. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    BF your are becoming a one trick pony. You hang your hat one one verse and ignore clear text that shows you are in error. Open your eyes and read the rest of the bible not just your pet verses.
     
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Acts of the Apostles 3:25-26 (NASB)
    “It is you who are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant which God ordained with your fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘AND IN YOUR SEED ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE EARTH SHALL BE BLESSED.’

    “God raised up His Servant for you first, and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways.”

    Lets see if we can unpack this passage.
    Verse 25
    1) Who is the "you" who are "sons" or "children" of the prophets and "covenant?" The children of Abraham, not all those among the bloodline, but those whose faith in God resulted in obtaining "approval" per Hebrews 11.

    2) Of course "your seed" singular refers to Jesus and Jesus alone.

    3) All the families shall be blessed because Jesus became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole of humanity.
    Verse 26
    1) The "You" of "you first" again refers to believers among Abraham's descendants, i.e. "first to the Jew."

    2) "His Servant" is an interesting translation as the word refers to a child who does as His Father tells Him.

    3) So those blessed by Jesus turning them from sin are the believers who had obtained approval.​

    Therefore this passage does not provide a shred of support for universalism or Limited Atonement.
     
  4. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Call it what you will, yet you are denying that Christs death saved/healed them He died for, the testimony is of scripture 1 Pet 2:24

    Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
     
  5. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    You are evading and denying that with the giving of Christ, God gave also everything needed to be saved, Faith, Repentance, Forgiveness, the Spirit Rom 8:32

    He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
     
  6. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Peter and Isaiah Testify 1 Pet 2:24

    Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

    Isa 53:5

    But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

    Now according to these witnesses, how were they healed, saved ?
     
  7. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Atonement does not save but it does cover the sins of mankind. Those that will trust in the risen Christ will be saved those that do not will be lost. It is your errant theology that is causing your misunderstanding of scripture.
    BF you are trusting in a dead Christ to save you, read your bible it is only through faith in the risen Christ that one is saved. You struggle way to hard to hold onto your errant view.
     
  8. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    BF you are really showing just how out of touch you are with the bible. You read your theology into every text you think will support you. That is a really sad way to treat the bible, it is not a book of one liners, which is the way you are treating it.
     
  9. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    The atonement doesnt save ? The death of Christ doesnt save The blood of Christ doesnt save ? Friend listen to yourself, thats a horrible thing to say concerning the death of Christ, especially in light of the fact you scripture testimony the His stripes saved, healed 1 Pet 2:24
    24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
     
  10. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    God giving, delivering up Christ for the elect of God, with Him gives all the saving spiritual blessings needed to save. Repentance comes from Christ Acts 5:31

    31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

    He is the author of our repentance, A Saviour saves, He gives repentance !
     
  11. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Are you so stuck on that verse that you refuse to see what the Holy Spirit has said elsewhere?
    1Co 15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised;
    1Co 15:14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.
    1Co 15:15 Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised.
    1Co 15:16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
    1Co 15:17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

    Note the bold words. We have faith in the risen Christ for salvation. Humanities sins were covered by the blood of Christ but we are saved by His life.


    Rom 4:25 He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification.

    He died because of our sins and was raised so we could be justified

    Rom 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
    Rom 6:5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
    Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
    Rom 6:7 for he who has died is freed from sin.
    Rom 6:8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
    Rom 6:9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
    Rom 6:10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

    BF you may worship a dead Christ but I worship the living Christ. A dead Christ could do nothing, a living Christ can forgive us our sins and take us home to be with Him.
     
  12. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Yes He forgives those that trust in Him for salvation.

    But If we apply your calvinist doctrine to this scripture, we would have to conclude that God was bestowing His irresistible grace upon every Israelite. Of course, all Israel was not saved, thus proving that that interpretation is incorrect.
    This leaves us with only one interpretation remaining, and it is the only one that makes sense and harmonizes with the rest of Scripture. Because God has given man freewill, man has a part (albeit a very small part compared with God’s part) in his own salvation. He must turn to Jesus in faith if he is to be saved. Ephesians 1:13-14

    God does not ask men to behave in order to be saved, but to believe. It is because of our faith in Christ Jesus that God saves the sinner. Ephesians 2:8-9
     
  13. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    silverhair

    By no means, I have a entire thread dedicated to this subject,, with tons of scripture. In fact you are posting in it now..
     
  14. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    silverhair

    He forgives them He died for. Forgiveness is through the Shed Blood Matt 26:28

    28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

    As the risen Saviour of those He died for He gives them repentance, and forgiveness of sins Acts 5:31

    31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

    And He gives them Faith to trust in Him. So anyone who never comes to Faith/Trust, that means He didnt die for them.
     
  15. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    silverhair

    He gives them trust in Him and His word, that was promised long ago Matt 12:21

    20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.

    21 And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.

    Rom 15:12

    And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

    Heb 2:13

    13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.



     
  16. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Note the words that you put in bold "28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." His death, His shed blood was for remission of sins. His resurrection was so we could trust in a risen Lord for our salvation.

    1Co 15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised;
    1Co 15:14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.
    1Co 15:15 Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised.
    1Co 15:16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
    1Co 15:17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

    Open your eyes and read the text.
     
  17. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    With His Stripes ye are healed !2

    The healing that is effected of 1 Pet 2:24 has its impetus in the forgiveness of sins, The Psalmist wrote Ps 103:3

    3 Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;

    Healing follows Forgiveness of sins for it is a Major Benefit of having Christ die for you, its congruous.

    Now the healing which accompanies the forgiveness heals our backsliding, or our departure/s from God as stated here Hosea 14: 2-4

    2 Take with you words, and turn to the Lord: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.

    3 Asshur shall not save us; we will not ride upon horses: neither will we say any more to the work of our hands, Ye are our gods: for in thee the fatherless findeth mercy.

    4 I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.

    That word for heal is rapha' = I.to heal, make healthful

    Its to heal their backsliding, the word meshubah and means:

    faithless, turning back, apostasy

    Remember Isa 53:6

    6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

    Well He heals that going astray, that turning to our own way and again it is declared Vs 5

    5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

    It comes because, He was wounded for Our Transgression, because Our Iniquity was laid upon Him, that produces a healing from faithlessness or unbelief ! Unbelief caused the departure from God Heb 3:12

    Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

    Thats what Adam and Eve did in the garden because of the serpent !

    Back to our text, what preceded the promise to heal the backsliding ? Look at Hos 14:2

    2 Take with you words, and turn to the Lord: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.

    Dosent that Look to this Isa 53:6

    6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

    And what does Christ do with them after they are laid on Him ? Ps 103:12

    12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

    That word removed here rachaq means:

    I.
    to be or become far, be or become distant, be removed, go far away
    A.
    (Qal) to be far, be distant

    B.
    (Piel) to send far away, extend

    C.
    (Hiphil)
    i.
    to make or exhibit distance, be gone far

    ii.
    to remove, put far away



    II.
    (Niphal) loose

    John the Baptist speaks of it here Jn 1:29

    29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

    The words taketh away here mean I.to raise up, elevate, lift up
    A.
    to raise from the ground, take up: stones

    B.
    to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand

    And the words take away here Hos 14:2

    2 Take with you words, and turn to the Lord: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.

    Those words mean also :

    to lift, carry, take

    The taking away of sin and receiving us graciously speaks to the reconciliation that is effected in the Death of Christ Rom 5:10 !

    All for whom Christ has died has a clean slate before God's Law and Justice, and so the vital application of the healing takes effect, which heals our backsliding in adam, or our turning to our own way Isa 53:6. This healing gives us repentance toward God and Faith in Jesus Christ.

    God's anger has been turned away ! How so ? By the propitiation of Christ 1 Jn 2:2 and that brings healing !
     
  18. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    His death secured/accomplished the remission of sins Matt 26:28
    28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

    Remission of sins is also Justification. And when Christ rose from the dead, it was a verification that those He died for, are forgiven and Justified Rom 4:25

    25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

    Paul is saying that He was raised again because of our Justification, or forgiveness.

    That word Justification dikaiōsis:

    the act of God's declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him; adjudging to be righteous,

    So the resurrection of Christ confirms that Christs death, for them He died[His Sheep] put away their sins,gave them forgiveness, and declares them righteous.

    Now are you going to deny the testimony of Christs resurrection ?
     
  19. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    "All for whom Christ has died has a clean slate before God's Law and Justice, and so the vital application of the healing takes effect, which heals our backsliding in adam, or our turning to our own way Isa 53:6. This healing gives us repentance toward God and Faith in Jesus Christ."

    Why do you keep putting forth your universalist views? That is not what the bible teaches. This has been pointed out to you a number of times and you just keep coming back with the same errant view.
    Why will you not trust what the bible says?
    Showing your bad theology over and over again will not make it any better, it is still and will continue to be bad theology.
     
  20. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    BF you just showed that what I have been telling you all along is what the bible teaches.
    Rom 4:25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

    You seem to have finally gotten it. Christ's blood does not save, it covers the sins of man-kind. The risen Christ saves those that trust in Him. You still have a problem with who and why one is saved but I am sure you will get it in time.

    Your last question is rather silly as I have been telling you all along that one is saved by the risen Christ which you kept denying.
     
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