The Atonement of Christ: What did it REALLY Achieve ?

I know you do not believe there is anything else but Calvinism and Arminianism. Just to let you know I'm neither. I'm a born again Christian who considers both of your doctrines as false as the Catholic church that those doctrines came out of.
MB

 

1 Pet 2:24

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

The healing [ Spiritually] is the sure effect and benefit of His stripes [ or atonement], and His death in His own body on the Tree for sins of His church, His elect, His sheep, without fail secures and ensures their death to sin, and their being made alive to righteousness, even the righteousness of Faith.

Many today really do not understand the power of Christ death and it's accomplishments.

 

God addressed all three people in Genesis...try reading it.
There is no doubt about it you are woefully ignorant of your Bible.
If you are asking questions like a new believer I'd be a lot more reserved and and try to help but it's obvious to me you have no business to be criticizing anyone for what they believe. Everyone in Christendom knows that Genesis 315 is the First Gospel promise look it up somewhere looking any commentary of anyone and anyone will tell you it's the first gospel promise.
You mentioned 1st Corinthians 15 as the gospel. But what you don't realize is that was what you mentioned is the historical facts of the Gospel the death burial and resurrection of Christ but the gospel is a lot more and a lot more involved than that and even in 1st Corinthians 15 two times it says in the passage The Gospel According to the scriptures plural it goes all through the scriptures so before lecturing me it that you know what the gospel is you don't
As if your comments weren't ignorant enough just the way they are as you try to be so smug and sarcastic against covenant theology and the doctrines of grace and then you spew forth such ignorance .
how about let's look at Galatians 3::8 I'll give you time to turn in your Bible to Galatians 3:8 if you have a Bible handy before you go off and say that I'm ignorant of the Gospel or whatever you think.
explain to me Galatians 3:8 where it says in the scripture for seeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the Gospel to Abraham beforehand saying in you all the nations shall be blessed what do you think of that MB.

 

My faith does not rely on man. Commentaries are not the inspired word of God. What promise that man would bruise the head of a snake or that the snake would bruise the heel of man. Like all Calvinist you're reading into scripture what is not there at all.
The Bible illustrator;.
The general results of the Fall
I. ETERNAL ENMITY BETWEEN SATAN AND HUMANITY (Gen_3:14).
1. This curse was uttered in reference to Satan.
2. This address is different from that made to Adam and Eve.
3. There was to commence a severe enmity and conflict between Satan and the human race.
(1) This enmity has existed from the early ages of the world’s history.
(2) This enmity is seeking the destruction of the higher interests of man.
(3) This enmity is inspired by the most diabolical passion.
(4) This enmity, while it will inflict injury, is subject to the ultimate conquest of man.

Nope no gospel there. Tell me oh great expositor of the Word. Where oh where is the gospel promise in a curse Gen 3 15

There is lots of good news in the Bible but the most important is the death burial and resurrection of Christ and why He had to die. A curse placed on man is not good news period
.

We all blessed with the same opportunities? To choose to worship God and believe in Him. This blessing is for all men not just some supposedly elect few as you profess.
MB

 

instead of admitting your error in coming to truth you double down on your error quite foolishly. All Calvinists are reading the scripture how I guess the Apostle Paul identifies as a calvinist then in Romans 16:20 when he quotes the passage take a look at it read and learn my friend.
Your post also also demonstrates you don't understand Galatians 3:8 where Paul says for seen that God would justify the Gentiles you know the ones you say are not elect but a Paul didn't say that he said God for seeing that he would justify the Gentiles preach the gospel to Abraham so you can try to dance around it and avoid it but all you doing is showing you you lack of comprehension up and down the line.

 

Oh how I wish I could dance again but for a man who always has his cane I get get around ok. God justifies the heathen by faith Even Jews can be a heathen.
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. KJV Not all Gentiles are heathens.
MB

 

I know what the effects and the objectives are but you have chosen to ignore everything that does not fit your preconceived notion of Gods' atonement. Look at the scriptures. God made salvation available to all not your chosen few. You are trying to restrict what God has said He will do.

As I said before you have to start looking at context, then you may finally understand what the bible says.

 

No, you don't know gospel. This is the problem you struggle with.

 

he doesn't understand the full effects of the fall towards us as sinners in Adam!

 

Austin since you say you know what the gospel is why don't you enlighten all of us? Try to keep it biblical.

 

You made the comment so tell us what are "the full effects of the fall"? As I said to Austin try to keep it biblical.

 

Romans 3:21-26
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

That is the good news.

 

Amen and I agree, but I think that this one shows where our faith actually comes from a bit clearer:

" But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 to declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus."

"δικαιοσυνη δε θεου δια πιστεως ιησου χριστου εις παντας και επι παντας τους πιστευοντας ου γαρ εστιν διαστολη" ( All Greek texts ),
where " ιησου" means "from Jesus" or "of Jesus", not "in Jesus".

Romans 3:22 Greek Text Analysis
Romans 3:22 Interlinear: and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, -- for there is no difference,
Interlinear Bible: Romans 3:22 - Textus Receptus Bibles

 

Is not this as well?

" And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." ( Romans 8:28-39 ).

Those that love God are the called according to His purpose.

Why do we love Him?
Because He first loved us ( 1 John 4:19 ).

Ephesians 2:1-10 also comes to mind. :)

 

Question, who was Paul talking to in those texts? Answer Jews. He was using what is known in Rabbinic tradition as Midrash. This is taking Old Testament passages of Scripture out of their natural contexts so as to emphasize a point being made. And the point was that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin. You on the other hand have taken it to mean that none can seek God.

Now we know that Paul was drawing these verses from the OT so we should look in the OT to see what it says.

Deu 4:27 And the LORD will scatter you among the peoples, and you will be left few in number among the nations where the LORD will drive you.

Deu 4:28 And there you will serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see nor hear nor eat nor smell.

Deu 4:29 But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul.



Here we see that even though the people had turned to false gods they still had the ability to seek God and find Him. This text describes the nature of genuine repentance: a turning away from sin, unto obedience to God and His ways.

Repentance involves the total man: heart and soul. Heart refers to the innermost being of man: his spirit. Soul refers to the volition of man: his mind, will, and emotions. Repentance is a change of attitude, an "about face" of man’s concept of God and self and sin.



Jer 29:12 Then you will call upon Me and go and pray to Me, and I will listen to you.

Jer 29:13 And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.

Jer 29:14 I will be found by you, says the LORD,



Note again here that it is the people that call upon God and seek Him. The emphasis here is that His people must chose to return to Him God does not make them do it. As we know not all the Jews returned to Jerusalem



Hos 5:15 I will return again to My place Till they acknowledge their offense. Then they will seek My face; In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me."



The first step in repentance is confession of sin; the second, turning to God. Man must recognize their sinful ways, turn from them and seek Gods’ forgiveness.



We see that man can seek God, they can repent of their sinful ways. With this in mind I would say that your takeaway from Rom 3 is in error.



But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. ~ Romans 3:21-26



As you can see I just copied this from your comment and for the most part I agree with what you have highlighted. But I think you have failed to point out other important sections.

“to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.”

Note it does not say Justified so they would have faith but Justified because they have faith.

This same view is dealt with again by Paul in

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Rom 5:2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Rom 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

So once again we see that a man is justified/saved by God after he has sought God. When we look at the whole of scripture we get a clear picture of the love that God has for His creation and the plan He has put in place for the salvation of those that believe.



Austin you asked “How can one who is dead in trespasses and sin have faith?” But then you answered your own question. “For by grace you have been saved through faith.” Now I know you think how can someone who is dead in trespasses do anything, how can they believe? Well you gave the answer again “even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ” Now you may be thinking, as so many calvinists do, well if the person is dead like a corpse then they can do nothing and that would be true if that we the case. But it is not. Just look up a few verses and we find 1] those dead in sin were just dead spiritually as they did lots of things, they walked, lusted, fulfilled desires etc. & 2] Back just a few more verses to Eph 1:13 and we find these same people heard the gospel, trusted the gospel and thus were sealed/saved by the Holy Spirit.



As I have said many times context matters. Now just one last matter, “particular atonement”. How do you handle verses like:

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,

Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Christ Jesus was lifted up and as a result anyone that will trust in the finished work of Christ Jesus will be saved. The atonement was meant for everyone. Although not all will accept the offer of salvation that does in no way lessen the valve of the atonement. That is why when someone asks For Whom Did Christ Die?

We can answer He died for:

Mat_9:13; Luk_5:32 died for sinners

1Ti_2:6; Isa_53:6 all

Heb_2:9; 1Ti_4:10 every man

Joh_3:17 the world

Joh_3:16; 18 whoever believes

1Jn_2:2 sins of the whole world

Rom_5:6 the ungodly

Rom_5:8-10 while we were sinners

2Pe_2:1 false teachers

Mat_20:28 many

Joh_11:50-51 Israel

Eph_5:25 the Church

Gal_2:20 “me”

 

Friend you still dont see the light !

 

" For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 if by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee." ( Romans 11:13-18 ).

He was speaking to Gentiles as well in that letter, was he not?

 

Not being Austin and speaking strictly for myself, I agree.
But in order to find the passages that speak the same way as Romans 3:9-18 ( all under sin, none seeking God, etc ), we'll have to go to where God spoke the same way about that subject, should we not?

" The wicked in his pride doth persecute the poor: let them be taken in the devices that they have imagined.
3 For the wicked boasteth of his heart’s desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the Lord abhorreth.
4 The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts.
5 His ways are always grievous; thy judgments are far above out of his sight: as for all his enemies, he puffeth at them.
6 He hath said in his heart, I shall not be moved: for I shall never be in adversity.
7 His mouth is full of cursing and deceit and fraud: under his tongue is mischief and vanity." ( Psalms 10:2-7 ).

" The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one." ( Psalms 14:1-3 ).

" The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.
2 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.
3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." ( Psalms 53:1-3 ).

The fool ( that's all of us ), the wicked ( that's all of us, because there is none righteous, no not one ) will not seek God...
God is not in all his thoughts.

Question:
The Bible speaks of the wicked and the righteous.
Since there is none righteous ( all are wicked ) and all are under sin ( there are only two states for us as men, "wicked" and "righteous" in God's eyes ), then how can there be anyone who is righteous and who seeks God?

Answer:
Those who are made righteous by the blood of His Son are those whom He has saved, given the gifts of both eternal life and the new birth, and they are the only ones who will seek Him.

Question:
Who are "the wise" in Proverbs?

Answer:
Same as above... the ones whom God has made wise by revealing His truth to them.

Is that not how you understand who "the righteous" are, versus who "the wicked" are?

The children of God versus the children of the devil?
The believer versus the unbeliever?
The man who builds his house on the Rock, and the man who builds his house on the sand?
The one who hears God's words and welcomes them, versus the one who rejects His words ( John 8:43-47 )?

 

You do realize that OF is not in the Greek text. The Greek reads thus θεου {God} δια {through} πιστεως {Faith} ιησου {Jesus} χριστου {Christ} You may notice that OF is not in the text but IN also is not in the text. They were add to make it read better in English.



Here is a Textural Note regarding this verse.

Or "faith in Christ." A decision is difficult here. Though traditionally translated "faith in Jesus Christ," an increasing number of NT scholars are arguing that πίστις Χριστοῦ (pisti Christou) and similar phrases in Paul (here and in Rom_3:26; Gal_2:16; Gal_2:20; Gal_3:22; Eph_3:12; Php_3:9) involve a subjective genitive and mean "Christ’s faith" or "Christ’s faithfulness"



While that the grammar is not decisive, nevertheless it suggests that "the faith/faithfulness of Christ is not a denial of faith in Christ as a Pauline concept (for the idea is expressed in many of the same contexts, only with the verb πιστεύω rather than the noun), but implies that the object of faith is a worthy object, for he himself is faithful."

So it would seem that either IN or OF have no real effect on the text as it all comes down to the faithfulness of Christ Jesus. We must trust in Him for salvation.

 

I note you have a problem dealing with the text.