The Atonement of Christ: What did it REALLY Achieve ?

I agree.
It's the tense of the word "ιησου" in Greek, which I showed in post # 53...
it means, "of / from Jesus", not "in Jesus".

I'm reminded of Matthew 4:4 and Luke 4:4...
According to Him, not one single word of His is of "no real effect".

Since Christ is the author and finisher of our faith ( Hebrews 12:2 ), then the believer's faith comes from Him, is the evidence of His work in us ( Hebrews 11:1 ), is something that not all men have ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 ) and is a gift given by God to the believer ( Ephesians 2:8 ) .
It is also a fruit of the Spirit ( Galatians 5:22-23 ).

It is the faith "of / from" Jesus Christ ( Galatians 2:16-20 ).

It amazes me to think that the real reason that I hold on to Him and His promises, by faith, is precisely because it was a gift to me....
Just as my eternal life was.:)

May God bless you in many ways, sir.

 

He is talking to both Jew and Greek. This is why he says "without distinction."
The entire letter is to Christians in Rome, showing them that the law came through the Jews, but both Jew and Greek are still condemned and the wrath of God falls on both. It is only those who are justified by faith that have God's wrath displaced upon Jesus.
You have created a dichotomy where none exists and specifically where Paul is annihilating the idea that there is some special blessing on Jews that Gentiles couldn't have unless they became Jews.
Your argument is debunked by Paul himself.

 

Your good at pulling together a number of verses that really have no relation to each other . They may sound good when strung together but that is not how the bible is to be understood. By that method you could make the bible justify just about anything.

I will admit I have not seen many people that can proof text like you. You pull random verses together out of context and then think they prove your point. Sorry that is not how it works for real bible study.

Also did you bother to read the textural notes. It suggests that "the faith/faithfulness of Christ is not a denial of our faith in Christ.

 

"MB,

Not sure it relies on scripture from reading your posts.

[QUOTE]Commentaries are not the inspired word of God.[/QUOTE]
No one said they were. but if all of them say the same thing, it might just be they have found truth

Have you ever wondered how the SEED of the woman, would have victory over the seed of the Serpent???
What could that be???

Said a blind man..

 

Purpose and accomplishment of Christ death

2 Cor 5:15

15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Paul here in this context gives us another purpose and accomplishment of Christ death for sinners.

He died for all [ the called or chosen or church] that [in order that] they which live [ spiritually] should henceforth [ no longer, no more] live unto themselves, but [ nevertheless , rather] unto Him which died for them, and rose again.

So the very death of Christ, produces in them He died for, a life of self sacrifice, and living unto Him, the crucified life.

This is why Paul boasted in the power of the cross in his own life writing Gal 6:1414

14But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

The cross effects each life of those Christ died for to one degree or another, but it produces results, it bears fruit. Jn 12:24

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

 

In your instance, Paul is telling the Corinthians that Christ died for all who believe, meaning it goes beyond Jews and extends to Gentiles. There is no distinction between Jew and Gentile. People from all nations, tribes and tongues will find reconciliation through Christ Jesus.
Your universalism is not taught in the Bible. There is no universal atonement.

 

What I think is that you don't see the significance of how they relate to each other.
Why that is, I cannot say.

Respectfully,
You don't have the authority to tell me how it is to be understood, no more than I have the authority to do likewise.
After all, according to the Scriptures, God's children have the Holy Spirit for that ( 1 Corinthians 2:6-16, 1 John 2:20-27 ), and they aren't reliant upon men for their understanding of it.

In other words,
Less mature believers don't rely on God's teachers to bring them up to the more mature believer's level of understanding like it was under the Law of Moses ( or like it is in secular institutions such as colleges )...
The Lord gives the body of Christ teachers to teach the word...not how to understand it.

For that, each believer has the Spirit individually given to them, so that they can know the things that were freely given to them by God ( 1 Corinthians 2:6-16 ) and all of them can then come into the unity of the faith ( Ephesians 4:11-16 ) as equals.

At the end of the day,
You can tell me how you see it, and I can tell you how I see it...
But ultimately, you will see it your way and I will see it mine.

If we agree, then we agree.
If we don't agree, then we don't agree and we cannot walk together ( Amos 3:3 ).

 

I agree.
Someone who really knows what they are doing could string a whole lot of verses together to "make" God's word say just about anything that they wish.
That is where context comes in...wouldn't you say?

I can assure you that there is a difference between source texting and proof texting.
Source texting links Scripture with Scripture to bring into account everything that the Lord has to say on a given subject, while proof texting exalts one thing that God has to say over and above everything else that He has to say on a given subject.

For example, the use of John 3:16 to "make" God's word say that He loves everyone is proof-texting, when source-texting brings in Psalms 5:5-6, Psalms 11:5, Proverbs 6:16-19, Ephesians 2:4-10 and Romans 9:13 ( among many others ) and tells us who God loves and who He hates.

They may seem random to you, but they are not random to me.

Without trying to be contentious,
How would you know how "real Bible study" works, other than the way the Bible itself describes it...
a child of God simply picking it up and doing what their Father in Heaven tells him or her to do in these passages:

" as newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:" ( 1 Peter 2:2 )
" Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." ( 2 Timothy 2:15 ).

Is there a set of rules that someone has imposed on the Bible that I need to approach it with?
The Lord says, "no, there is not" ( 2 Peter 1:3 ).

We have what we need, as He has provided it.

I can't speak for anyone else here, but I've never found textual notes to be helpful when it comes to studying God's word.

 

Sure there is...
It's universally for the elect.:)

I also think it very possible that you and @Brightfame52 are talking past each other on this one.;)

 

Redemption provides New Birth !

One of the reasons why Christ came to this earth, was to be made under the Law, for His Members [ of His Body] in order to redeem them from the curse of the Law, and that they may receive the Adoption of Sons !

Gal 4:4-5

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

That is to receive the Spirit of Adoption. Rom 8:15

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

This Spirit is given Sovereignly to all Christ redeemed with His blood, simply, all for whom He died !

 

You misrepresent what I said, and are way off !

 

John Calvin, unlike modern-day Calvinists, did not believe in limited atonement:
John Calvin: Not a Calvinist

 

Made of a women for who ?

Gal 4:4-6

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

The objects of redemption when Christ was made of a women, that is, when He was made Flesh and Blood, it was not for all of mankind, but for the seed of Abraham per Heb 2:14-16

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

His Flesh and Blood Identification, when made under the Law, born of a women [ The virgin birth] was limited to a certain segment of mankind, the seed of Abraham.

And this seed, was not limited to a certain segment of mankind, as the jews may have thought, but it consisted in all who would believe in Christ, jew or gentile Gal 3:29

And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

So, Christ was made under the Law, born of a women, to Redeem the seed of Abraham, all those who should believe in Him through the Spirit of adoption !

Redemption secures unto Christ believers in Him [of the seed of Abraham], by the Working of the Spirit of Adoption !

 

In being made of a woman and made under law, He took on the seed of Abraham and not the seed of mankind in general, for all mankind is not the Seed of Abraham Heb 2:16 18

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Now in taking on the seed of Abraham, Paul says that He was made sin for us !

2 Cor 5:21

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us [The seed of Abraham], who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Who are the us in 2 Cor 5:21 that Paul is referring to ? Is it all mankind without exception ? No it is not. Let us examine the scripture to find the answer. " When the fulness of time had come, God sent forth His own Son [meaning He was God's Son before Mary's Son], made of a women, made under the law, to redeem [ not to make redemption possible] them [ His members, His body] that were under the Law [Limited redemption]that [in order that] they may receive the adoption of Sons.

Now coming as such [ under the law] He came and took upon Him the seed of Abraham. The seed of Abraham is a chosen people !

Ps 105:6

O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.

Isa 41:8

But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

So its plain that He came and Identified with and to redeem a Chosen People, and not the whole world of mankind.

In taking on the seed of Abraham, He took on all their Transgressions, and died for their sins !

Isa 53:4-11

4 Surely he hath borne our [seed of Abraham] griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.


5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed [The seed of Abraham], he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many [The seed of Abraham]; for he shall bear their [The seed of Abraham] iniquities.

1 Cor 15:3

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our [The seed of Abraham] sins according to the scriptures;

Yes, in all places above where we see the pronouns our, us, we, their, it refers to the Seed of Abraham !

Lets not forget it is written that He took on the seed of Abraham Heb 2:16

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

 

In his heart of hearts, neither does John Piper:

 

More on the accomplishment of the Atonement !

In taking on the seed of Abraham, being made sin for us, what does this mean ? Does it mean that He actually became sin , as I understand some believe ? No, not at all; but what it does mean is that He became our sin offering, by bearing our sins Isa 53:11-12

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

The word bare in this verse is the hebrew word
nasa' and means:

to cause one to bear (iniquity)

To receive the punishment of sin upon oneself for others !

Heb 9:28

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

1 Pet 2:24

24 Who his own self bare our [seed of Abraham] sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

1 Jn 3:5

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our [seed of Abraham] sins; and in him is no sin.

Like the scape goat, He bare away the sins of Israel, that is took them away cp Jn 1:29

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Lets not forget in this connection that it is written that he took on the seed of Abraham Heb 2:16

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

For it was with this seed only He stood Identified with, in lieu of the seed of the serpent !

It was for this seed he bare their sins in His body on the tree, for it was as the seed of Abraham that he was recognized by the law and justice of God, as being responsible for their sins. So He was made a sin offering for their sins, bearing their sins in His body on the Tree.19

 

More important is what does the scriptures teach?

 

More on the accomplishment of the Atonement !

Heb 2:16

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

For it was with this seed only He stood Identified with, in lieu of the seed of the serpent !

It was for this seed he bare their sins in His body on the tree, for it was as the seed of Abraham that he was recognized by the law and justice of God, as being responsible for their sins. So He was made a sin offering for their sins, bearing their sins in His body on the Tree.

Think with me for a moment, if a crime is committed by ones hand, is it not true that the life of the body of which that hand is a member will be liable to law and justice for the crime ? For that's why it is written that Jesus is the Saviour of the body per Eph 5:23

23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the Saviour of the body.

In line with this Truth and subject, the High Priest confessed the sins of Israel [ the seed of Abraham] only over the head of the scape goat, and it was said their [ Israel's] sins were laid upon the head of the scapegoat and borne away per Lev 16:20-22


20 And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat:

21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:

22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

It is in this way Jesus was made sin for the sins of us [ The seed of Abraham] by becoming their sin bearer; for He was also made a curse for His People Gal 3:13

13 Christ hath redeemed us [seed of Abraham] from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us [seed of Abraham]: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:20

 

Also made a curse !

It is in this way Jesus was made sin for the sins of us [ The seed of Abraham] by becoming their sin bearer; for He was also made a curse for His People Gal 3:13

13 Christ hath redeemed us [seed of Abraham] from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us [seed of Abraham]: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

The first we read of any curse is Gen 3:17

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

and this curse is the result of Adam's Sin who BTW is the Forefather of Abraham see Lk 3:34 which was the breaking of the Law of God, the covenant of God, that Adam broke covenant is seen here:

Hos 6:7

But they like men [Adam] have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.

Well Christ as the substitute on the cross for the sins of the seed of Abraham, not only bore the curse for them, but became a curse for them, so that, when Christ took away their sin on the Tree, He redeemed them out of the curse of the Law and Covenant Deut 29:21

And the LORD shall separate him unto evil out of all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the covenant that are written in this book of the law:

Gods people whom Christ died for can never be called cursed i.e Num 23:7-8

7 And he took up his parable, and said, Balak the king of Moab hath brought me from Aram, out of the mountains of the east, saying, Come, curse me Jacob, and come, defy Israel.

8 How shall I curse, whom God hath not cursed? or how shall I defy, whom the LORD hath not defied?

cp 2 Cor 5:19 & Rom 8:33

For Christ has become a curse for them already and has borne all their charges !

Now, it should go without saying that those who will yet hear these words from The Saviour, the Seed of Abraham Matt 25:41

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

cannot be any for whom Christ died for substituted for. Those can be only cursed for this Gal 3:10

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.21

These are born under the curse of the law and remain so, with no redemption, and so shall hear those dreadful words in the day of Judgment.

They were not of the seed of Abraham or of the woman, but of the seed of the serpent ! see Gen 3:14-15

 

More on the accomplishment of the Atonement !

Now, regarding the substitutionary death of Christ for sinners, that in and of itself was not able to meet the righteous demands of God's Law, for to merely punish the innocent and clear the guilty was also a violation of Gods Law which Christ came to fulfill. Prov 17:1522

He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.

However, the Head being Identified with it's body may be charged for the crimes of the body i.e Eph 5:23,30

23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the Saviour of the body.

30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

He identified with His body in taking on the seed of Abraham ! He had the redeemers right to redeem His people as the nearest of kin to them, and holding by virtue of a higher status, as the firstborn in the seed of Abraham, because they too partook of flesh and blood Heb 2:14,16b

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same;

16b but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

You see, He substituted for those who were of the seed of Abraham, they all belonged to the same seed line, He and they !