What proof do you have that Jesus would have never created fermented wine other than rhetoric? Are you saying that Jesus could not have done such a thing but God does regularly?
Where would you propose that one buy unfermented wine to celebrate the Lord's Supper? Perhaps you should check the internet to see if it is even possible.
Fermented wine can be used to cleanse and purify too. It was used by Timothy for his stomach ailments. Was God wrong when he inspired Paul to write such a command?
Considering the weather and climate in that part of the world, could you give me one idea of how one would have kept or even made wine in an alcohol free state without pasteurization or refrigeration? Even in a refrigerator grape juice would get moldy in a short time. Why do you think the Bible says not to put new wine in old wineskins? Is the Bible wrong and inaccurate in what it says about how to store wine. How would it even be possible to get drunk on alcohol free wine. Is that one of those ideas parallel to transubstantiation?
Where did you get such information?
The Best Wine
Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by His Blood Spoke My Name, Aug 31, 2006.
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Excellent point.
When Jesus spoke that he was talking about the effect Christians would have on the world. Christians may be small in number but have huge affect. That kind of leaven is good. Leaven makes the bread rise. It only takes a small amount to raise a loaf of bread. Its effect is so great with so little amount. The leaven permeates the entire loaf of bread. So will godly Christians permeate the world in which they live. -
I wouldn't advocate its use without a perscription since it is illegal, but please don't overlook herbal methods of healing for the sick or mock them. They're often much safer, less addictive, and less harmful than modern pharmaceuticals.
Cocaine, btw, is also a substance that can be used medicinally in different forms, from an anesthetic administered during eye surgery and in gel form as an oral anesthetic. (and tea form for other issues)
Now if you're using cocaine for those types of things, this is just fine. (and now they make synthetic cocaine that has taken over a lot of the historical uses of it medicinally...so is that wrong too?)
If you're sniffing it up your nose or smoking it for fun, you've got a serious problem.
If the cure is more harmful to your body than the reason you're using it, that's just dumb.
There are probably a ton of people on this board who protest both alcohol and cocaine that unknowingly have used some derivitive of both. If one has eaten baked goods or had a milkshake, they've probably ingested trace amounts of alcohol because it's used as a base in flavorings. (take a whiff of vanilla) With hospital injections or anesthetics or at the dentist they probably at some point put cocaine into their bodies.
I find it silly to object to the moderate use of most anything. God created things for our benefit.
It's our problem and sin if we abuse them. To knock something because it has the potential to be harmful (hey, a knife is harmful if misused too!) just isn't wise. -
Wow! I guess the Pharisees didn't die out!
IMHO it is common but I am not the Pharisee with crazy whacko legalistic standards such as you...the Holy Spirit does help and it is soooooo easy
when you mix it with common sense. I would just not invite you to a wedding with wine and would not have you over for the game for a beer and chips....in so doing would do my best not to make you stumble or offend you...but you are overwhelmingly on the wrong side of the debate
and it gets weaker and weaker as history and common sense with help from God prevails over the Pharisee...Amen.
My orginal post again Imho ..
Where throughout history do you find grape tasters or connoisseurs of grape juice non fermented...none...nada...zero...zilch but throughout history even till today you have wine connoisseurs and wine tasting to press out the quality and give out awards....the best wine ever made was at the wedding of Cana, if that wine was here today it would win every award known to wine.
And such was the case at the wedding of Cana those who knew wine
and in charge of the wedding feast and drink ...were well aware of quality and they were amazed at how the best was saved for last and how great af quality it was.
Thank you Holy Spirit for helping me and the common sense of it all
sincerely
Aslanspal -
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SWL, your post is a bit of why these conversations get so insane and unfocused!
Someone says a little wine is ok, and people say they're calling it ok to be drunks.
Someone says an herbal type of medication is ok for an herbal type of medication, and people claim they're saying we could go get stoned for fun.
Man takes what God created and abuses it and makes bad uses out of them, mocking the good.
Now on threads like this, Christians are taking what God created for good, denying it, and mocking the good.
I have a problem with that. It doesn't seem to be at all a good, wise, or Christian way of coming at our world.
Everything we have was created by God and is good in some form. It is Satan's desire to corrupt it, man's sinfulness to desire wrong uses of what we've been gifted with.
Please don't play along and call good evil because Satan can corrupt it. There's not much Satan and his angels and sinful man can't corrupt!
Logic says that if marijuana is wrong, so is aspirin.
If coca is wrong, so is morphine.
On and on.
Let's be thankful for what we have instead of constantly looking at the ways in which they can be abused...otherwise we'd have practically nothing to be thankful for. -
Gina L said:SWL, your post is a bit of why these conversations get so insane and unfocused!
Someone says a little wine is ok, and people say they're calling it ok to be drunks.
Someone says an herbal type of medication is ok for an herbal type of medication, and people claim they're saying we could go get stoned for fun.
Man takes what God created and abuses it and makes bad uses out of them, mocking the good.
Now on threads like this, Christians are taking what God created for good, denying it, and mocking the good.
I have a problem with that. It doesn't seem to be at all a good, wise, or Christian way of coming at our world.
Everything we have was created by God and is good in some form. It is Satan's desire to corrupt it, man's sinfulness to desire wrong uses of what we've been gifted with.
Please don't play along and call good evil because Satan can corrupt it. There's not much Satan and his angels and sinful man can't corrupt!
Logic says that if marijuana is wrong, so is aspirin.
If coca is wrong, so is morphine.
On and on.
Let's be thankful for what we have instead of constantly looking at the ways in which they can be abused...otherwise we'd have practically nothing to be thankful for.Click to expand...
When you are in a debate and you have no good argument to back up your position you have to use extream retoric to insult you opponent and mis-reprisent your opponents views.
Of course she wants to turn a debate over if a glass of wine is ok into a debate about if smoking crack cocain for fun is ok. Then she will have a leg to stand on in the debate. -
Gina L said:Man takes what God created and abuses it and makes bad uses out of them, mocking the good.Click to expand...
Of course the problem is who has the authority to grow it, for possession of marijuana is illegal. Our government has passed the most ridiculous laws. Isn't odd that maijuana has never been medicinal until the last ten years? :rolleyes:
So both Lot and Noah took that which was good and made it for bad uses. You can do that with many things, as you yourself pointed out. The most common one is alcohol which was once banned during the Prohibition Era. It still is banned in countries like Pakistan. I guess they are just smarter than we are. They knew back then, and Pakistanis know now, the evils of alcohol.
DHK -
Soul Winning Lady:
I agree, sister!
This is also why my wife and I avoid all pleasure during the marriage act. The marriage act is pornographic. And God hates sin and pornography! And we always do it with the lights out. Actually, we do that for my sake, since my wife gouged out her eyes out last year because she looked at me one too many times. Better to do that then sin and lose one's soul.
Keep the faith! -
ROTFLOL -- I hope at least a few others enjoy the humor there.
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ASLANSPAL said:IMHO it is common but I am not the Pharisee with crazy whacko legalistic standards such as you...the Holy Spirit does help and it is soooooo easyClick to expand...
You are in need of some serious Bible study. There is a difference between legalism and walking a life that is holy unto the Lord. Because I desrie holiness in my life does not make me legalistic. There is a big difference. You need to study those conceptis out. BTW, the person who has nothing better to do than insult his opponent has only proven to everyone else that he has lost the debate.
when you mix it with common sense. I would just not invite you to a wedding with wine and would not have you over for the game for a beer and chips....in so doing would do my best not to make you stumble or offend you...but you are overwhelmingly on the wrong side of the debate
and it gets weaker and weaker as history and common sense with help from God prevails over the Pharisee...Amen.Click to expand...
I have been to weddings (a number of them) where alcoholic beverages were served. My extended family are Catholic and not saved. Theyare all social drinikers, so-called. In every case I have had to leave shortly after the ceremony or early into the reception just after the cake is cut. From then on in these social drinkers let the wine flow freely. These social drinkers end up calling cabs to drive them home because they can't drive their own cars safely. Oh no! They are not drunk, and never have been. They insist on that fact. They insist that they are only social drinkers. With the consumption of alcohol, comes the increasingly loudness of music--more alcohol--louder music--more noise--a more raucous time. Say this is a great testimony for a Christian isn't it!!
Don't worry you don't have to play God, and judge me. I have been to a number of weddings that serve alcohol, and have seen the devastating effects. I have seen the good examples set by parents for their children. I have seen the type of language that is used that otherwise would not be used. I have seen it all. The barriers all come down with the consumption of alcohol. But, remember, these are people that don't get drunk. They may get a bit tipsy. But they don't get drunk. Yea, tell me about it!
Tell me about your Holy Spirit that leads you into such situations.
My orginal post again Imho ..
Where throughout history do you find grape tasters or connoisseurs of grape juice non fermented...none...nada...zero...zilchClick to expand...
But tell me first does knowledge or the lack of it come from the the Holy Spirit?
Does a google search come from the Holy Spirit? Does the Holy Spirit lead you into ignorance?
Frist realize that most varieties of wines come from Europe.
Secondly, only certain wines can be grown in America primarily because of climactic conditions.
Thirdly, wines are not just made from grapes. They can be made from peaches, apricots, and almost any kind of fruit.
That being the case the source of the wine must be tested. It is tested for its quality, its taste, its comparison to other wines.
Just as the settlers came to Canada and found that they could not grow the wheat they brought from Europe, they had to develop a more hardy wheat by cross breeding. Wheats had to be tested if not even tasted. The same holds true for wines. Notice I said wheat, not bread, cereal, and all the products of wheat. And so it is with the wines. It is the source that has to be tested first. Not the end product. If the source of the product is no good then the product will be no good either. A bad tree will bear bad fruit--a concept that Jesus taught. Fruit is tested, not just the product: juices and wines. You have been wrong. Did the Holy Spirit lead you to be wrong? It would be good for you not to be so arrogant and attribut everything you say in a debate to the the Holy Spirit. It is the height of blasphemy.
but throughout history even till today you have wine connoisseurs and wine tasting to press out the quality and give out awards....the best wine ever made was at the wedding of Cana, if that wine was here today it would win every award known to wine.Click to expand...
And such was the case at the wedding of Cana those who knew wine
and in charge of the wedding feast and drink ...were well aware of quality and they were amazed at how the best was saved for last and how great af quality it was.Click to expand...
Thank you Holy Spirit for helping me and the common sense of it allClick to expand...
DHK -
gb93433 said:What proof do you have that Jesus would have never created fermented wine other than rhetoric? Are you saying that Jesus could not have done such a thing but God does regularly?Click to expand...
God creates many things on a regular basis that man mis-uses or abuses. So what?
He has created hemp, but not to smoke; likewise the tobacco plant.
He has created the poppy plant, but man misuses that.
He has created man and women, and when he first did they were naked, and unashamed. Sin has made that different now.
I could go on and give you dozens of other examples, but is it necessary. Man has a depraved nature and abuses that which God has created for good purposes. Are you in the business of blaming God for man's sin?
Where would you propose that one buy unfermented wine to celebrate the Lord's Supper? Perhaps you should check the internet to see if it is even possible.Click to expand...
Fermented wine can be used to cleanse and purify too. It was used by Timothy for his stomach ailments. Was God wrong when he inspired Paul to write such a command?Click to expand...
Considering the weather and climate in that part of the world, could you give me one idea of how one would have kept or even made wine in an alcohol free state without pasteurization or refrigeration? Even in a refrigerator grape juice would get moldy in a short time. Why do you think the Bible says not to put new wine in old wineskins? Is the Bible wrong and inaccurate in what it says about how to store wine. How would it even be possible to get drunk on alcohol free wine. Is that one of those ideas parallel to transubstantiation?Click to expand...
Where did you get such information?Click to expand...
DHK -
So both Lot and Noah took that which was good and made it for bad uses. You can do that with many things, as you yourself pointed out. The most common one is alcohol which was once banned during the Prohibition Era. It still is banned in countries like Pakistan. I guess they are just smarter than we are. They knew back then, and Pakistanis know now, the evils of alcohol.
DHK[/quote]
DHK my goodness you just showed your true colors of the Pharisee by putting your lot in with the Taliban and Muslim Pharisees....thanx for falling into it and how God can reveal truth by someones arrogance.
so hold on to your ridiculous position it is really someone spitting into the wind but I am sure you can control a few people with it and some family members ...thank goodness you do not make policy and control a denomination or we would be deserving the name Taliban over here.
Now back to the Wedding of Cana
Kool and the Gang : Celebrate good times come on!
http://bsbu-network.com/Music/CelebrateGoodTimes.rm
For you DHK perhaps you can step out of that molasses and get on the good foot ...dance and sing and have a glass of champagne at a modern day Wedding of Cana if you want too but if you don't that is fine but one thing is for sure ...people can celebrate at weddings...responsibly ...but still celebrate.
brought to you by the Help of the Holy Spirt who is an immediate help on such matters...Thank You God. Must give credit where credit is due. :love2: :thumbs: -
DHK said:I have given you my proof. Leaven throughout the Bible is a symbol of sin, corruption and false doctrine. In previous posts I have quoted plenty of Scripture to prove this point. I can repeat this if you like.
DHKClick to expand...
One well fermented wine has no leaven, fresh grape juice does.
Two Leaven is not always a symbol of sin, as Jesus uses it to symbolise His kingdom of Heaven.
It would help your argument, if you knew what you were talking about. -
DeeJay said:I get the feeling you dont even read others posts. It has been shown to you that
One well fermented wine has no leaven, fresh grape juice does.Click to expand...
The grapes may have some yeast on its skin, but this yeast has not caused any fermentation just as yeast in leavened bread causes the bread to rise. In other words: what is the result? It was the picture that the Jews looked. The leaven caused leavened bread, a picture of sin. The leaven (in the grapes) causes the fermentation, a picture of sin. Again, the Jews were not molecular scientists. They owned vineyards. They could produced either wne or grape juice. Most of the time it was grape juice. Do your homework.
Two Leaven is not always a symbol of sin, as Jesus uses it to symbolise His kingdom of Heaven.Click to expand...
Consistently leaven symbolizes sin, corruption, false doctrine.
It would help your argument, if you knew what you were talking about.Click to expand...
DHK -
DHK said:Wine may not have the remnants of yeast in when a person drinks it, but it had to have a yeast in it in order to become fermented.
The grapes may have some yeast on its skin, but this yeast has not caused any fermentation just as yeast in leavened bread causes the bread to rise. In other words: what is the result? It was the picture that the Jews looked. The leaven caused leavened bread, a picture of sin. The leaven (in the grapes) causes the fermentation, a picture of sin. Again, the Jews were not molecular scientists. They owned vineyards. They could produced either wne or grape juice. Most of the time it was grape juice.Click to expand...
It is not the fermentation that is the symbol, it is the leaven (yeast) itself. Leavend bread is not fermented. The yeast causes the bread to rise not ferment. Yogrut is not fermented the leaven causes the dairy to produce emzimes. Leaven causes dairy to curdel for cottage cheese, it causes acid in viniger.
It is not the fermentation that is forbiden during the passover. It is the leaven itself. Because the leaven is the symbol, not the fermentation.
So here is my point. If grape skins contain leaven, like you acknolage
The grapes may have some yeast on its skin,Click to expand... -
ASLANSPAL said:So both Lot and Noah took that which was good and made it for bad uses. You can do that with many things, as you yourself pointed out. The most common one is alcohol which was once banned during the Prohibition Era. It still is banned in countries like Pakistan. I guess they are just smarter than we are. They knew back then, and Pakistanis know now, the evils of alcohol.
DHKClick to expand...
DHK my goodness you just showed your true colors of the Pharisee by putting your lot in with the Taliban and Muslim Pharisees....thanx for falling into it and how God can reveal truth by someones arrogance.Click to expand...
so hold on to your ridiculous position it is really someone spitting into the wind but I am sure you can control a few people with it and some family members ...thank goodness you do not make policy and control a denomination or we would be deserving the name Taliban over here.Click to expand...
Now back to the Wedding of Cana
Kool and the Gang : Celebrate good times come on!
http://bsbu-network.com/Music/CelebrateGoodTimes.rm
For you DHK perhaps you can step out of that molasses and get on the good foot ...dance and sing and have a glass of champagne at a modern day Wedding of Cana if you want too but if you don't that is fine but one thing is for sure ...people can celebrate at weddings...responsibly ...but still celebrate.Click to expand...
brought to you by the Help of the Holy Spirt who is an immediate help on such matters...Thank You God. Must give credit where credit is due. :love2: :thumbs:Click to expand...
DHK -
DeeJay said:Grape skin has more then some yeast on it. It has all the yeast it needs to ferment the grape. The reason yeast is used as the symbol it because of its amazing ablity to reproduce so fast. If you look at the reproduction rate you see why it a little leaven leavens the whole lump.
It is not the fermentation that is the symbol, it is the leaven (yeast) itself. Leavend bread is not fermented. The yeast causes the bread to rise not ferment. Yogrut is not fermented the leaven causes the dairy to produce emzimes. Leaven causes dairy to curdel for cottage cheese, it causes acid in viniger.
It is not the fermentation that is forbiden during the passover. It is the leaven itself. Because the leaven is the symbol, not the fermentation.
So here is my point. If grape skins contain leaven, like you acknolage
Then what did Jesus drink during the last supper?Click to expand...
Thomas B. Welch, M.D., the founder of Welch Grape Juice Company, was born in England in 1825. A devout Christian and staunch prohibitionist, Dr. Thomas B. Welch did not like wine being used in his church's communion service. In 1869 he decided to try developing a non-alcoholic substitution. Dr. Welch had an ample supply of grapes on hand, because he lived in the town of Vineland, New Jersey (named for its many vineyards), and it was common for him to receive bushels of the fruit as payment for dental services. Experimenting at night, Welch tried to create a grape beverage that would not ferment and become alcoholic. Fermentation, the dentist knew, occurred when the natural sugar in grape juice was converted to alcohol by yeast particles that collected in the fruit. To prevent this, the yeast would have to be destroyed. Welch accomplished this by placing bottles of grape juice in pots of boiling water, and allowing the heat to kill the yeast.Click to expand...
http://www.ohiosbdc-ysu.com/Location/Guide/Oscar_Mayer/Wrigley/Welch_s/welch_s.html
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I have seen several posts that have degraded into insults, on both sides of the issue.
I would like to call for a return to the issues with out the insults.
I would also like to apoligise to DHK for
It would help your argument, if you knew what you were talking about.Click to expand...
Do your homework.Click to expand...You will do well to leave the Holy Spirit out of it lest you sin yet more.Click to expand...IMHO it is common but I am not the Pharisee with crazy whacko legalistic standards such as you...Click to expand...Surely none of the liberals here would object to that!Click to expand... -
DHK said:Perhaps it contained no yeast. I am not convinced yet.
http://www.ohiosbdc-ysu.com/Location/Guide/Oscar_Mayer/Wrigley/Welch_s/welch_s.html
Click to expand...
Thomas B. Welch, M.D., the founder of Welch Grape Juice Company, was born in England in 1825. A devout Christian and staunch prohibitionist, Dr. Thomas B. Welch did not like wine being used in his church's communion service. In 1869 he decided to try developing a non-alcoholic substitution. Dr. Welch had an ample supply of grapes on hand, because he lived in the town of Vineland, New Jersey (named for its many vineyards), and it was common for him to receive bushels of the fruit as payment for dental services. Experimenting at night, Welch tried to create a grape beverage that would not ferment and become alcoholic. Fermentation, the dentist knew, occurred when the natural sugar in grape juice was converted to alcohol by yeast particles that collected in the fruit. To prevent this, the yeast would have to be destroyed. Welch accomplished this by placing bottles of grape juice in pots of boiling water, and allowing the heat to kill the yeast.Click to expand...
Pasteurization (or pasteurisation) is the process of heating food for the purpose of killing harmful organisms such as bacteria, viruses, protozoa, molds, and yeasts. The process was named after its inventor, French scientist Louis Pasteur. The first pasteurization test was completed by Pasteur and Claude Bernard on April 20, 1862.Click to expand...
A couple points. If pasturization was known to the jews in the time of Christ why did Louis Pasteur get credit for inventing the process and why did Welch have to experiment. Are you saying that the technic was lost to history and rediscovered. Even with all the writings from that time period.
Show me some evidence that jews knew how to pasturize anything.
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