The Biblical God
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Iconoclast, Jun 21, 2014.
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Winman said: ↑Thank you for your honesty Willis. :thumbsup:
This is what is called "natural law". It is what all men innately understand.Click to expand...
That is why I said you're probably right. -
The Confessions are the attempted of godly men to understand and explain what the doctrines God gave to us in the Bible are, but they must NEVER be elevated to the place where those explainations are said to have been inspired by the Holy Spirit, nor that those Confessions are on par with the Bible itself!
Some seem to almst would have them like Rome views tradition, equal to the sacred scriptures!
If I want to know who God is, what His atrributes are, i MUST go to the bible, not to ANY Conessions/Creeds/dtatement of faith. cathchism etc! -
DHK said: ↑If you want to be taught by Confessions, Catechisms, Keach, and Owens, then fine. We learn primarily from the pastors and teachers of our own local pastors, not the dead ones.Click to expand...
Grow up in the faith DHK. Don't despise wisdom of the past. Many godly men of the past can help us understand the Word of God. -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Yeshua1
The Confessions are the attempted of godly men to understand and explain what the doctrines God gave to us in the Bible are, but they must NEVER be elevated to the place where those explainations are said to have been inspired by the Holy Spirit, nor that those Confessions are on par with the Bible itself!Click to expand...
Some seem to almst would have them like Rome views tradition, equal to the sacred scriptures!Click to expand...
If I want to know who God is, what His atrributes are, i MUST go to the bible, not to ANY Conessions/Creeds/dtatement of faith. cathchism etc!Click to expand...
You claim you go to "the Bible'...but when KYRED asks you to offer any scripture...you never do....why is that? -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite SupporterRippon said: ↑You sound like the now banned Saturneptune:"You can take your dead theologeans[sic], their writings and their opinions and make rolls of toilet paper for all I care."
Grow up in the faith DHK. Don't despise wisdom of the past. Many godly men of the past can help us understand the Word of God.Click to expand... -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
DHK
I have already answered thisClick to expand...
you thought you did...but you really did not.
You used 1Cor.2:12, a verse about how the Holy Spirit illuminates the mind of the believer giving him understanding in the Scriptures to mean that he can know all about God. That is wrong. You are completely false in your interpretation.Click to expand...
The Scriptures I gave have much to do with that part of the CoF which you posted, and that part of the CoF which I copy and pasted from the OP. I demonstrated that, but perhaps you didn't want to deal with the facts.Click to expand...
Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Not the writers of the 1689 CoF, that is for sure.Click to expand...
The questions posed in Romans 11:33-36 are posed rhetorically, and the answer to all of them are NO! You cannot know the mind of God, and neither could they!Click to expand...
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.
opps...guess that slipped by you:laugh:
Therefore for them to set out the decrees of God as if they did know them, is ridiculous. That is why I disagree with it. That is what you wanted in the OP, right?
"Could you agree...." Answer: NO.Click to expand...
I don't ridicule Paul's teaching.
I will point out error when there is error.
I have never mocked scripture.
When you are offended your default is to mock. Your post showed a lot of itClick to expand...
I will stand by what I posted as I explained it is your M.O. to do that.
To claim knowledge above and beyond what the Bible says is gnosticism.Click to expand...
To claim "decrees" that God has not set forth in His Word is..........Click to expand...
I already have.Click to expand...
You can read whoever you want. I don't have to read the people, links, confessions, catechisms, sermons, etc., that you want me to read. Why do you want to assume that you are my boss? Absurd!Click to expand...
As I have explained to you already, I have enough to study in preparing for my own preaching and teaching that I don't need your recommended reading material.Click to expand...
If you want to be taught by Confessions, Catechisms, Keach, and Owens, then fine.Click to expand...
Proverbs 4:13
Take fast hold of instruction; let her not go: keep her; for she is thy life.
Proverbs 6:23
For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:
Proverbs 10:17
He is in the way of life that keepeth instruction: but he that refuseth reproof erreth.
Proverbs 12:1
Whoso loveth instruction loveth knowledge: but he that hateth reproof is brutish.
You do not welcome this evidently:thumbs: -
Rippon said: ↑You sound like the now banned Saturneptune:"You can take your dead theologeans[sic], their writings and their opinions and make rolls of toilet paper for all I care."
Grow up in the faith DHK. Don't despise wisdom of the past. Many godly men of the past can help us understand the Word of God.Click to expand...
I am not required by anyone's standard to to read Icon's mandatory reading list. So grow up and stop telling me what I should and should not read! :rolleyes: -
Iconoclast said: ↑While no creature can fully comprehend and infinite God.....we can have His mind as he has revealed those portions that we can understand as the Spirit allows.....
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.
opps...guess that slipped by youClick to expand...
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
Do you have a hard time reconciling Scripture Icon?
No one has known the mind of the Lord. Not you; not the authors of the 1689 CoF. -
Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Just because we do not agree with someone's answer does not mean they did not answer it.
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Iconoclast said: ↑Inspector Javert said: ↑The op asks what the person himself would do,,,,,not what might be God's determined willClick to expand...
.... The question was....WOULD YOUClick to expand...
......not what would or could God have ordained.Click to expand...
I think you need to read the document.
You don't appear to understand the Confessions or their implications at all.
Would you worship and serve this God as described in the confessionClick to expand...
......God's determined purpose will come to pass exactly as He wants it toClick to expand...
They would do as they were ordained to do.
....no matter how many of you guys protest or try and explain it away..:wavey:Click to expand...
you want us to answer the question assuming the Confession were true. If we do so, than what I answered is the correct answer...It's the only POSSIBLE answer. If any one is possibly "protesting" it it is you yourself because you want us to ignore your first premise. Your O.P. essentially asks this:
Assume the Confession is true
Now, ignoring the statements of the Confession itself; answer this question as though it were false?
You have to deny your founding premise in order to ask the question.
You are failing to understand that. The question itself is non-sense if the Confession is true. <---your beginning premise.
That's not opinion Icon....it's simple logic. It's not even debatable. If you deny that, than you are simply wrong as though you miscalculated the value of 4+1....Click to expand...Click to expand... -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
well inspector J two people have already answered that they would not worship the God that is revealed in that confession so the question is valid
the second thing is I'm asking you not to answer about the secret things of God as to what He has decreed obviously whatever things comes to pass I'm asking you what you make your decision for the Jesus that described in the 1689 confession of faith could you worship him 2 people have said no.
again I'm asking you what could you do I'm not asking what God ordained -
Iconoclast said: ↑well inspector J two people have already answered that they would not worship the God that is revealed in that confession so the question is valid
the second thing is I'm asking you not to answer about the secret things of God as to what He has decreed obviously whatever things comes to pass I'm asking you what you make your decision for the Jesus that described in the 1689 confession of faith could you worship him 2 people have said no.
again I'm asking you what could you do I'm not asking what God ordainedClick to expand...
Here is when he answered you;
Inspector Javert said:If it was ordained yes, if not no...Click to expand... -
Iconoclast said: ↑well inspector J two people have already answered that they would not worship the God that is revealed in that confessionClick to expand...
so the question is validClick to expand...
So, since two other people made the same (quite understandable) mistake that you did (assuming that the question is valid) that makes the question valid? If 500,000 people made the same (quite common) error, than it's still not a valid question.
the second thing is I'm asking you not to answer about the secret things of God as to what He has decreed obviously whatever things comes to passClick to expand...
It doesn't matter whether we THINK we would do one thing or another. What matters is what the "secret things" are ordained to occur. And what those decrees actually are are the things which will actually obtain.
I'm asking you what you make your decision for the Jesus that described in the 1689 confession of faith could you worship himClick to expand...
1.)If I were foreordained as a member of the elect and chosen to love and serve him, than, yes obviously I would. (and it doesn't matter what I THINK would happen). My desires would change my heart would change, my nature would change such that I would come to love and worship him.
2.) If God had so ordained to "pass over" me such that my wicked nature which was at enmity with him from birth was never altered by God...than, no, I would never come to love and worship him.
Those are the facts according to the confession and the only possible correct answer to that question. Nothing else is valid.
That's not my opinion....it's just fact.
2 people have said no.Click to expand...
They made the same mistake you did. It's an understandable mistake, but, it's a mistake. They are coming to realize the error in answering that question in either the affirmative or the negative.
Rev. answered "yes".....
He doesn't know that, he only thinks that; he was mistaken:
Winman and DHK answered "no"...they also made the same mistake. It's an understandable mistake. Not everyone is wired to catch it....
But, now that I have explained this, those same two people have BOTH come to understand the fallacy of your question....
It's not valid.
again I'm asking you what could you doClick to expand...
I'm not asking what God ordainedClick to expand...
Those are facts Icon...not my opinion. They are indisputable.Click to expand... -
Iconoclast said: ↑If the God revealed in scripture was exactly as described in the 1689 Confession of Faith.......would you worship and serve Him as your Lord and King?
As described here;
http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/bcof.htm
3. God's Decree
1.God has decreed in Himself from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things which shall ever come to pass.
- Yet in such a way that God is neither the author of sin nor does He have fellowship with any in the committing of sins, nor is violence offered to the will of the creature , nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
- In all this God's wisdom is displayed, disposing all things, and also His power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree.
2. Although God knows everything which may or can come to pass under all imaginable conditions, yet He has not decreed anything because He foresaw it in the future, or because it would come to pass under certain conditions.
3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of His glorious grace. Others are left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of His glorious justice.
4. Those angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and the number of them is so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
5. Those of mankind who are predestinated to life, God chose before the foundation of the world was laid, in accordance with His eternal and immutable purpose and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will. God chose them in Christ for everlasting glory, solely out of His free grace and love, without anything in the creature as a condition or cause moving Him to choose.
6. As God has appointed the elect unto glory, so, by the eternal and completely free intention of His will, He has foreordained all the means. Accordingly, those who are elected, being fallen in Adam:
- are redeemed by Christ,
- are effectually called to faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season,
- are justified, adopted, sanctified,
- and are kept by His power through faith unto salvation;
- neither are any but the elect redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved.
7. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, in order that men who are heeding the will of God revealed in His Word, and who are yielding obedience to it, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation be assured of their eternal election.
So shall this doctrine provide cause for praise, reverence, admiration of God, and also provide cause for humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all who sincerely obey the Gospel.Click to expand...
I understand what you are trying to do here. Obviously the only answer a Christian can give to the question you pose in the OP is "yes". The reason that is the only answer possible is because you create a condition by stating, "If the God revealed in scripture was exactly as described in the 1689 Confession of Faith..." If our Arminian friends asked the same question about a document that supports their position then you and I would be compelled to say "yes". Why? Because we would be bound by the condition that their document accurately reveals truth about God. Of course my response to them would be that I do not accept the premise of their condition, so I could not answer the question in the affirmative. The pendulum swings both ways on this. Better to debate head-on the theological statement that the 1689 LBC makes in chapter 3 about God's Decree. -
Inspector Javert said: ↑They did....and if they gave a definitive "yes" or "no" answer, then they were mistaken to have done so. I've explained the error in the thinking, and they've probably realized how erroneous the question is by now.
Really???
So, since two other people made the same (quite understandable) mistake that you did (assuming that the question is valid) that makes the question valid? If 500,000 people made the same (quite common) error, than it's still not a valid question.
Those presumed "secret things of God" are what will in fact ACTUALLY occur.
It doesn't matter whether we THINK we would do one thing or another. What matters is what the "secret things" are ordained to occur. And what those decrees actually are are the things which will actually obtain.
And the 1689 Confession already answers that question for us:
1.)If I were foreordained as a member of the elect and chosen to love and serve him, than, yes obviously I would. (and it doesn't matter what I THINK would happen). My desires would change my heart would change, my nature would change such that I would come to love and worship him.
2.) If God had so ordained to "pass over" me such that my wicked nature which was at enmity with him from birth was never altered by God...than, no, I would never come to love and worship him.
Those are the facts according to the confession and the only possible correct answer to that question. Nothing else is valid.
That's not my opinion....it's just fact.
They were mistaken to do so....
They made the same mistake you did. It's an understandable mistake, but, it's a mistake. They are coming to realize the error in answering that question in either the affirmative or the negative.
Rev. answered "yes".....
He doesn't know that, he only thinks that; he was mistaken:
Winman and DHK answered "no"...they also made the same mistake. It's an understandable mistake. Not everyone is wired to catch it....
But, now that I have explained this, those same two people have BOTH come to understand the fallacy of your question....
It's not valid.
I CAN only do what God has ordained.
What God has ordained is the only thing I am capable of doing and the only possible outcome which will obtain.
Those are facts Icon...not my opinion. They are indisputable.Click to expand...
No, I realized, and have known for quite some time that if Calvinism is true, I can only believe what God has ordained.
Of course I reject this view, and this is why I answered I could not worship a God as the 1689 CoF describes.
But then, I don't base what I believe on man-made creeds as Iconoclast does, I base what I believe on scripture.Click to expand... -
See, Inspector J, when I considered the 1689 CoF as being true, I still rejected it. So if the CoF is true, my ordained answer is no.
Now, how can I believe the gospel, and yet be ordained to reject the 1689 CoF?
That's quite a question. -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Inspector Javert
Those presumed "secret things of God" are what will in fact ACTUALLY occur.Click to expand...
It doesn't matter whether we THINK we would do one thing or another.Click to expand...
Could you worship the God described in the 1689 confession as described in it..
The God who elects, saves, predestines, has sealed His word in Scripture...or do you hate the teaching so much that you would not worship Him..that is the issue faced here......it is not a pure theological discussion...because I find a hatred for these teachings and exposing the hate is the first step to being able to discuss it.
It is a real question....in real time.... I can answer as a Calvinist so to speak but that was not my purpose in this thread.
thank you for your concern that I did not understand the confession ...if you see me stray from it...by all means offer correction.:thumbsup:
What matters is what the "secret things" are ordained to occur. And what those decrees actually are are the things which will actually obtainClick to expand...
No doubt...and yet some said they would not....the could not worship a God who does these things...I find that very telling.
And the 1689 Confession already answers that question for us:
1.)If I were foreordained as a member of the elect and chosen to love and serve him, than, yes obviously I would. (and it doesn't matter what I THINK would happen). My desires would change my heart would change, my nature would change such that I would come to love and worship him.Click to expand...
I did ask...if the statements in the Confession were true and accurate...would or could you worship even if you do not quite understand every part of the document.
It is like asking a person...do you believe God destroyed the world of the ungodly with the flood?
2.) If God had so ordained to "pass over" me such that my wicked nature which was at enmity with him from birth was never altered by God...than, no, I would never come to love and worship him.Click to expand...
Those are the facts according to the confession and the only possible correct answer to that question. Nothing else is valid.Click to expand...
everything in the CoF is true......do you believe in the God it describes is a valid question:thumbs:
That's not my opinion....it's just fact.Click to expand...
They were mistaken to do so....
They made the same mistake you did. It's an understandable mistake, but, it's a mistake.Click to expand...
They are coming to realize the error in answering that question in either the affirmative or the negative.
Rev. answered "yes".....
He doesn't know that, he only thinks that; he was mistaken:
Winman and DHK answered "no"...they also made the same mistake. It's an understandable mistake. Not everyone is wired to catch it....
But, now that I have explained this, those same two people have BOTH come to understand the fallacy of your question....
It's not valid.Click to expand...
I CAN only do what God has ordained.Click to expand...
if a person has a no answer ...we know how to proceed with them.
What God has ordained is the only thing I am capable of doing and the only possible outcome which will obtain.Click to expand...
Those are facts Icon...not my opinion. They are indisputable.Click to expand... -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Winman;
See, Inspector J, when I considered the 1689 CoF as being true, I still rejected it. So if the CoF is true, my ordained answer is no.
Now, how can I believe the gospel, and yet be ordained to reject the 1689 CoF?
That's quite a question.Click to expand... -
Iconoclast said: ↑Winman;
Someone would call God a monster..and still think of heaven...???Not sure that would work outClick to expand...
Now, explain that.
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