The Catholics are not lost

I never said anything about being in heaven without being saved. Where do you get that from? When Christ comes for "his own" that is, the Jews, it will be on earth, at the end of the Tribulation Period. That has nothing to do with heaven (except that Christ is coming from heaven). The entire scene is on earth. The Millennial Kingdom is on earth. The Jews that enter the Kingdom will enter it from the earth, along with those who are called the sheep.

The criteria for their "salvation" is whether or not they have been friendly to the Jews. It is not speaking of a spiritual salvation. It is speaking of an entrance to the Kingdom.

 

I got that because you said "the kingdom of heaven". Is the "kingdom of heaven" not heaven?:confused: :confused:

And then what happens to them concerning eternity once they're in the 'kingdom' that isn't heaven?

And this kingdom is the same thing as eternal life, but it isn't heaven?

 

The Kingdom that I was referring to and that Jesus was referring to in those events in Matthew was the Millennial Kingdom on earth, often referred to as the Kingdom of Heaven, especially in the Book of Matthew. That is very much different than Heaven itself. The Jews look for the Kingdom--the Kingdom of Heaven: one thousand years of the reign of Christ on earth, when Christ Himself will literally sit on the Throne of David; when the curse will be lifted and the lion will lie with the lamb, etc.

 

Whaaaat?! That's one of the most twisted views of this passage I've ever come across. There's absolutely no theological merit for that interpretation.

Try again

 

:thumbs: :applause:

 

It is foundational to this topic.

It has everything to do with salvation - the wording is quite clear

No one has here. We're just trying as good Christians should to follow our Lord and Saviour. Believing in His words is, for me at least, pretty darn important on that front.

Yes. And? Does that negate it's soteriological truth? I don't think so...

I'm not a dispy so that won't wash. What is clear, whether you're a dispy or not, is that it speaks of future judgement for us all, based on what we've done.

So, OK, fine, do what you like now and hang the consequences in this life and try and forget about the Sheep and the Goats scene. Sounds like a type of credit-card morality and spirituality to me; thanks but no thanks - I prefer to build my faith on something more concrete than plastic.

I haven't - what it says is abundantly clear and it's a shame that some people are closing their eyes to God's word in this way.

 

So does that mean that Oskar Schindler (notorious womaniser, not a Christian as far as we know, but saved hundreds of Jews from the shoah) will go to Heaven?

I reiterate - I'm no dispensationalist and am agnostic at best on the whole topic of millenialism; the Scriptures on this issue are manifestly unclear and apparently contradictory at times with each 'party' citing their own pet Scriptures to 'prove' their points (see the Baptist only fora from time to time by way of demonstration), so I stick with the Nicene-Constantinopolitan "and His Kingdom will have no end". Therefore, since this interpretation (of Matt 25) is based on the novel scheme of dispensationalism, I don't accept it.

 

And then what happens to these 'sheep' once the 1000 year reign is over? How is their eternity spent?

 

I agree, Matt. As I understand it, the Greek word translated in Matthew 24 as "nations" does not mean "nations" in the sense of "countries". Jesus said that His kingdom is not of this world. Paul wrote to the Christians in Galatia, many of whom were not natural descendants of Abraham:

27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Galatians 3:27-29)


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Jesus told some of the Jews that they were not His sheep:

24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me." (John 10:24-27)


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And in Philippians 3, Paul, having listed his absolute "Jewishness" ("circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin"), he says:

7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ. (Philippians 3:7-8)



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I agree with the words I found at http://www.theologue.org/SecondComingRaptureAndRevelation-TAdkins..html:

We should quickly acknowledge that there is no such thing as a “sheep nation” or “goat nation.” Jesus gave His life for men out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation. Some of all nations will be saved by God's grace. It would be impossible for entire nations to be cast into hell’s everlasting punishment without casting in certain ones who are redeemed, converted people. The word ‘nations’ must be understood to refer to all individuals of all the various nations of the earth, and from all the ages of human history. After all, that's what nations are, citizens, people! These, all, will be brought before the throne of the Lamb to be judged. And this judgment will be a righteous judgment of individuals, not a collective judgment based on appearances or on the political wrangling of the nation's various former leaders.

Neither America, England, Japan, nor Luxembourg will be collectively judged as righteous for having political policies showing excessive favor to the modern nation of Israel. While it is certain that God judges whole societies with temporal judgments because of cultural sins, no nation will be corporately judged regarding the state of its citizens’ souls in “the last day.” The whole concept of a national judgment, binding entire nations hand and foot and casting them into a never-ending hell, has sprang from the system of dispensationalism, not from the Bible.

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Indeed; a correct reading would render it as 'people(s)'

 

You cannot read into James what it does not say. James is comparing a saving faith and a creedal faith. The Jews had a creedal faith while Christinas had a saving faith. From a saving faith comes good works. If a person claims to be saved and has no works then his faith is dead. He is not saying that when a person has good works it shows that a person is a Christian. Good works can come from Satan worshippers. However they are not saved.

 

And what's the difference between the two?

 

First I don't want to try again, and I was reluctant to try to explain it in the first place for precisely the "known" reactions that it would bring.
But this one thing we can agree on: it is an eschatological event. And being so, I don't believe it has a bearing in this conversation. Let's stick with Scripture that are not speaking of future events and are not parabolic in nature. Jesus was speaking of his Second Coming.
That is not what this thread is about. What on earth does that have to do with "The Catholics are not Lost"?

 

It's quite germane to the thread and its question for this simple reason: it is claimed by many evangelicals that Catholics are 'lost' since they attach some soteriological importance to 'works' as well as faith. The Parable of the Sheep and the Goats is important since, read in conjunction with James 2:12-26 and with the resurrection of the dead and the judgement of Rev 21-22 (and thus not taking it as a stand-alone passage as you earlier alleged but rather marrying both the eschatological and soteriological nature of the Parable) it puts forth at least some of the criteria by which that judgement will be performed, namely whether one has performed works of charity, and therefore is critical evidence, from the lips the Jesus Himself, that faith alone is insufficient for salvation, and that therefore the Catholics (on that theological front at least) might not be quite as leftfield as those many evangelicals would like to think.

 

You are quite right in your analysis. We of the evangelical wing of Christians have, in large part, neglected this view in favor of the dip them and drop them approach. I have become aware, as I have grown older, that the more conservative and fundamental or our brethren the more they seem to dislike mankind in general and those who disagree with them on every jot and tiddle in particular. In fact, I have come to realize they take a very liberal approach to the Bible in attempting to force it to say what they want it to say. In other words, they preach to the Bible instead of letting the Bible preach to them.

The Bible is pretty clear that we will be judged as we judge others. That should give all of us pause in how we go about judging others. I believe if we took seriously the example of Christ in his approach to people then harsh judgements would be few and far between.

I'll duck now.

 

I'd get your coat as well!

 

Part of the question here seems to me exactly what is meant by 'salvation'. For example, the SBC statement of faith say that:

In its broadest sense salvation includes regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification.


It seems to me using this as a guide, when most people say they have been 'saved' they are really referring to having been 'justified', because I don't think they see themselves as being sanctified or glorified at this point in time.

So am I way off base here?

 

I agree with you in the sense that our faith will result in good works. So, in a sense, you could say that having faith + works is justification, because without works, you have shown that you did not put your faith in Christ, but it was a vain, worthless (faith in something else) faith. But you are not saved by good works. The works are a result of our love for Christ.
So faith and works are inseparable, but works do not save.

Jhn 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

If one has no good works, it is proof that he does not love Christ. First comes love, then comes works.

But the works do not save. We are not justified by our works, but by the work of Christ.

We may all be saying the same thing, but in a different way. Possible?

.

 

No, I don't think so; I think the SBC, in common with most Protestant denominations, would view justification and regeneration as part of the same 'event', with justification being forensically imputed, sanctification as being a like-long process, and glorification being post-death (quasi-Purgatory??); in Orthodox terms, 'sanctification' would be inter vivos and 'glorification' post-mortem theosis, I guess.

[ETA - above is reply to Mr Tumnus; cross-post with AmyG, with whom I am inclined to agree re 'talking past each other' - I think that was one of the things that the Joint Declaration on Justification agreed by Catholics and Lutherans acknowledged]

 

You lost me there. :laugh:

I think sanctification is a life long process because scripture says:
Hbr 2:11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified [are] all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Hbr 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

We are not perfected at the moment of salvation.