The Church and the Tribulation

Tell that to Paul, who was stoned and left for dead. Tell that to Peter, who was crucified upside down. Tell that to ... and so on.

The problem is that these things aren't punishment, and neither is the great tribulation. Great tribulation is something we endure to the Glory of God. Wrath, which begins on the Day of the Lord (immediately AFTER the great tribulation) is which is what we are spared, because wrath is punishment. Tribulation is NOT punishment.

 

I was using "nobody" as hyperbole. Jesus is warning the reader/listeners not to be misled by false claims that the messiah is here, because his return will be so obvious it will be seen even as lightning is seen at a great distance. And it will be literally SEEN.

"and they will see the Son of Man"

See Him where?

"coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory"

And who is it who sees Him?

"and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man"


The context of the following quotes applies to the nations (not just Israel) and makes it clear that the return of the Son of Man will follow dramatic signs in the heavens (sun goes dark, moon turns to the color of blood, stars fall from heaven, etc.) and will be extremely obvious.

 

Perhaps I misunderstood the question

My belief is that the church will not go through the 7 years tribulation.

These people are not the church. This was not the 7 year tribulation.

You are correct that these things are not punishment. Many things are things that we must endure as we live our lives.

I do not believe this is a correct interpretation. Enduring Wrath to Glorify God????
I don't believe this. I know that some people do believe this, but I don't.

In answer to the question as I understand it,

My belief is that the Church will not go through the 7 year tribulation.

 

and they will see the Son of Man

They saw the Son of Man come in the destruction of Jerusalem, and they fully understood.

Romans11:8 according as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not SEE, and ears that they should not hear, unto this very day.

"coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory"


Ex 24:15 And Moses went up into the mount, and the cloud covered the mount.
Ex 199 And Jehovah said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and may also believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto Jehovah.

Isaiah 19
1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, Jehovah rideth upon a swift cloud, and cometh unto Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

Clouds often represent the presence of God

Caiaphas understood this concept:

Matt 26:64 Jesus said unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Henceforth ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.
65 Then the high priest rent his garments, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy: what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard the blasphemy:

Caiaphas knew only Jehovah God came in the clouds. This was a claim of Deity that is why He called it blasphemy, he knew his old testament language.

"and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man"

Luke 2
1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed.


Careful how you interpret world and earth. Unless Ceaser taxed China, Austrailia, North and South America, it means ,in this instance, the Roman empire. Tribes of the earth refer to the jewish tribes of the Judea area.

(sun goes dark, moon turns to the color of blood, stars fall from heaven, etc.) and will be extremely obvious

This language is used in the OT to describe the fall of nations, peoples or cities:

Nahum 1
1 The burden of Nineveh. The book of the vision of Nahum the Elkoshite.
2 Jehovah is a jealous God and avengeth; Jehovah avengeth and is full of wrath; Jehovah taketh vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.
3 Jehovah is slow to anger, and great in power, and will by no means clear the guilty: Jehovah hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet .
4 He rebuketh the sea, and maketh it dry, and drieth up all the rivers: Bashan languisheth, and Carmel; and the flower of Lebanon languisheth.
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt ; and the earth is upheaved at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his wrath is poured out like fire, and the rocks are broken asunder by him.

Look how God describes the fall of Babylon by the Medes:
Isaiah 13
1 The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light ; the sun shall be darkened in its going forth, and the moon shall not cause its light to shine. 17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, who shall not regard silver, and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.

The 1st century Jews understood this language. They knew their OT backwards and forwards.


24 For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day

Job 37
1 Yea, at this my heart trembleth, And is moved out of its place.
2 Hear, oh, hear the noise of his voice, And the sound that goeth out of his mouth.
3 He sendeth it forth under the whole heaven, And his lightening unto the ends of the earth.

Clearly figurative language.

 

God is not bound by time. He is outside the confines of time and space. However, His creation is NOT. When God communicates with His creation He uses terms we could understand. To say the time-statements of the Bible are to be interpreted by the means of that verse is to render them completely useless and meaningless. It also makes God to be deceptive.

Is this how you preach? When you preach the 1000 year reign do you quote this verse and say to your audience" of course it might only be a 1 day reign"? Are we to take all the time statements and apply them using this verse? I'm willing to bet you only quote this verse when it deals with the timing of prophetic passages. After all, if we took them literally prophecys would all have to be fulfilled.

 

Grasshopper: //Is this how you preach? When you preach
the 1000 year reign do you quote this verse and
say to your audience" of course it might only be a 1 day reign"?//

You bettcha i do.

 

18 Little children, it is the last 2000+years: and as ye heard that antichrist cometh, even now have there arisen many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last 2000+years.

At least you are consistent.

 

Acts 2:17 (nKJV) says
that the LAST DAYS began the day of
Pentacost 0033AD:

'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God['/b], That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams.

Yes, and the last days will end at the
pretribulation rapture

 

Just want to throw out here that the pretribulationism that Ed Edwards promotes is not the same for all pretribbers.

Grasshopper, the arguments about the time references has been debated ad nausiem. They can either refer to time in a chronological sense or a qualitative sense. Do you understand this? Will you keep bringing this up in ignorance? I hope not.

LaHaye, Van Impe, Lindsey, Jeffries, and the other fools are an embarrassment and I do all I can to distance them. They are idiots. I truly feel sorry for people who follow them.

 

Exactly, I teach the pretribulation
message as given to Ed Edwards.

Just want to throw out here that the anti-pretribulationism that Gunther promotes is not the same for all anti-pretribbers.

LaHaye, Van Impe, Lindsey, Jeffries, and the other disciples of Jesus
can be an embarrassment and I do all I can to distance them. They are of average intellegence. I truly feel sorry for people who blindly follow them without thinking
or prayer or Bible study.

 

Just as an interesting aside, suppose that all who believe that the church will go PRE trib, GO, and those who believe that the church will stay for the trib, STAY!!!!????

Would that not be part of "paradise"; both sides able to say, "I TOLD YOU SO!"

 

The Five Tribulations
of the Holy Bible
Contrasted and compared
by ed

The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
tribulation: tribulation, distress, afliction, trouble

1. tribulation due to the human condition
WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adan & Eve
WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointements,
affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
anguish, torment, adversity,
travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
WHEN: From Adam's explusion from the Garden of Eden
to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?

2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millinnial kingdom of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
gift of martyrdom

3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
WHO: Yisrael dispersed among the goy
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
(from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus

4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
WHO: citizens of the world
WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
WHAT: the wrath of God
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
Period found in the O.T.:

The tribulation in Deut 4:30
the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
The year of recompence in Isaiah 34:8
The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:

 

Grasshopper, the arguments about the time references has been debated ad nausiem. They can either refer to time in a chronological sense or a qualitative sense. Do you understand this?


I guess not. Seems to me people twist them to fit thier views. Near means near and shortly means shortly to me. Guess I'm just an ole literalist.

Will you keep bringing this up in ignorance

You can count on it.

 

Actually Hebrews 1:1,2 says that the last days brgan with Jesus.

Very good. So futurist believe that Jesus, Atilla the Hun, and Bro. Ed all lived in the "Last Days"?
And all future generations will also live in them as well.

So to say we live in the "last days" really means nothing.

 

Be very careful
whom you blaspheme.

Acts 2:15-21 (nKJV):
For these are not drunk, as you suppose,
since it is only the third hour
of the day.
16 But this is what was spoken by
the prophet Joel:
17 'And it shall come to pass in the
last days, says God, That I will
pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall
prophesy, Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
18 And on My menservants and on
My maidservants I will pour out
My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in heaven above
And signs in the earth beneath:
Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood, Before
the coming of the great and awesome
day of the Lord.
21 And it shall come to pass That
whoever calls on the name of the
Lord Shall be saved.'

If you have a better explanation of
what Peter meant when he said this,
we await it.
I beleive that the Church Age begain
on the Day of Pentacost, 33AD and
continues to this day, and will contine
until Jesus comes in the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection. At that point the
chance of the Gentiles to be saved shall
end (except for theose who will be
saved by martyrdom), so the Age of Gentiles
(Church age) shall end.

In the Church Age "whoever calls on the name of the
Lord Shall be saved". In the tribulation
inter-age onlyl those who loose their head
for Jesus will be saved (except for the
Jewish Israeli elect saints who will be
supranaturally protected by Jesus in
the wilderness).

Yes, according the written word of God,
we live in the last days. BTW Attila the Hun
is a type of the Antichrist. But Attila only
killed a half or three-quarters of a million
Christians (and they were armed).

 

So, a couple of days is too long?
Did you realise that if God had NOT waited
a couple of His days, you and i would never have
been born let alone born-again?

 

Why is it so difficult. The context of a statement determines the meaning of the word.

Take the word: hard. Now, does it mean difficult or the opposite of soft? Only the context can determine the meaning.

So it is with the time references. You have chosen to make statements of actual events into figurative nonsense while choosing one definition of certain words. You then enter the passage with the determination that it must mean only that one definition. Nothing like impository eisegesis.

 

If I desired to say "i told you so", i'd be a postie
If the pretribulation rapturist are correct,
the posties will rise to meet Jesus
along with the pretribs right before the
Tribulation period begins. No time for
the pretribs to tell the posties "i told you
so!".
If the posties are right, they get to tell
us pretribs: "I told you so" until we all
die of torture and/or starvation.
Only the posties will get to say "i told you
so".
Therefore, i do not have the desire to
tell anybody "i told you so".

Maranatha! - the pretrib in one word
Corinthians 16:22 (KJV1769):
If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

 

Well, to you, "last days" meant 40 years. Very convincing there.