The Church and the Tribulation

Bro Griffin,
I have a good friend who wrote a pamphlet, "Is this the tribulation or am I just being tribulated".

I really liked the title.

Thanks ----Bart “The dueling society was a polite society”.

 

I believe that if there is a 7-year 'tribulation' period immediately prior to Christ's return, yes the Church will go through it.

 

Preterists fictionalize it (not for as much $$ as Tim LaHaye) but it is and will be real.

Show me a Preterist who doesn't believe the tribulation was literal. Read Josephus' "War of the Jews" for the Preterist account of the tribulation.

Tis futurist who have a problem with the literalism of Revelation 1:1, where "shortly" isn't to be taken literally.

 

No, the church will not go through the Tribulation.

Trotter

 

I have found an interesting article about the preterist view. I will qoute a section on "The tribulation" about how it did "literally happen" in ad 70, or so this woman (or man) thinks.

BTW, you really should read the whole article if you have time. click here

 

Been there, done that, got the T-Shirt, but I'll say it again...

There is no 7 year tribulation period. There is a period of great tribulation, which begins with the abomination of desolation when the man of sin is revealed. The church is present during the great tribulation. Jesus cuts the great tribulation short (how short nobody knows) with His return at the Day of the Lord, after which He pours out His wrath upon the world. The church is raptured on or about the Day of the Lord and is not subject to His wrath.

 

One problem with the preterist view regarding the war of the Jews is that they focus on the short period surrounding the destruction of the temple in order to make it fit the 7 or 3 1/2 year prophetic periods. They neglect the fact that the war waged on and off until 136 AD, with the Romans commiting terrible atrocities against the Jews throughout that entire time period.

 

It's not just about having war with the Romans. It's about Jerusalem in particular--the place where Christ was crucified, where the guilty leadership had their base of power and it's about the end of the vestiges of the Old Covenant (as Hebrews describes).

Tim

 

Maybe, but it bugs me that articles say things like this without mentioning that the events occur over a very big time period extending all the way to at least 136 AD:

The Jews still not only inhabited the land, but things like circumcision were not outlawed (or made more restricted) until sometime after 115 AD.

Ironically, religious Jews of the time of the revolt of Simon ben Kosiba (130-136 AD) believed they were experiencing the apocalyptic wars then, and that Simon Ben Kosiba was the messiah.

Last but not least, it strikes me as odd that preterists will obsess on a word like "generation" to bolster the preterist view, yet dismiss entirely the fact that Jesus said His return would be so obvious (and preceded by celestial signs that did not occur in 70AD) that nobody could miss it. Obviously a lot of people missed it because we're still arguing about what happened and whether or not it fulfilled prophecy.

 

One thing you have to love about the preterist system is this: they base their whole "proof" on the history of a lost Jew hired by the opposition to chronicle what happened. Very reliable. Yeah, it isn't to ridiculous and foolish to base theology on media coverage.

Preterists are literalists on timing statements only (by taking the one definition that fits their system surprisingly).

Futurists are literalists on timing statements and events. We don't prostitute the meanings of words.

 

The fact that suffering continued among Jews in the land after 70 AD is beside the point.

For a sense of the theological and historical import here, let me quote from Shaff's History of Christianity:

"The awful catastrophe of the destruction of the Jewish theocracy ... was the greatest calamity of Judaism and a great benefit to Christianity; a refutation of the one, a vindication and emancipation of the other. It not only gave a mighty impulse to faith, but at the same time formed a proper epoch in the history of the relation between the two religious bodies. It separated them forever. ... God himself destroyed the house , in which he had thus far dwelt, in which Jesus had taught, in which the apostles prayed; he rejected his peculiar people for their obstinate rejection of the Messiah; he demolished the whole fabric of the Mosaic theocracy; ... in doing so he cut the cords which had hitherto bound the infant church to the outward economy of the old covenant, and to Jerusalem as it's center. Henceforth the heathen could no longer look upon Christianity as a mere sect of Judaism, but must regard and treat it as a new , peculiar religion The destruction of Jerusalem, therefore, marks that momentous crisis at which the Christian church as a whole burst forth forever from the chrysalis of Judaism, awoke to a sense of its maturity, and in government and worship at once took its independent stand before the world."

 

Where does it say that nobody would miss it? And what signs are you reffering to?

I'll take the word of a lost 1st century Jew named Josephus over the word of a 21st century goof by the name of Jack Van Impe.

I love this argument. So how do futurist define words like: "soon", "near", "at-hand", and "last hour". Be sure not to prostitute the meaning.

 

The Bible does not promise us that we shall escape from the Tribulation. 1 Thess. 3:3-4 tell us, that we are appointed for tribulations. Why? Because Christ suffered on the cross, so, therefore we should follow His example - 1 Peter 2:21.

Paul tells us, that we must go throug MUCH tribulations - Acts 14:22.

In John 16:33 tells us, that we should be cheer while have tribulations, because Christ already overcome it.

Tribulation is not same as wrath. We shall never suffer the wrath of God, because of salvation through Jesus Christ - 1 Thess 5:9.

Wrath is for to punish all unbelievers who reject Jesus Christ, send tem to hell.

No scripture saying the wrath of God shall pour down upon one saint/Christian.

Rev. 13:7, and Rev. 20:4 tells us, Christians will be present on earth to face Antichrist.

Christ cannot come till Antichrist must to be revealed first - 2 Thess.2:3. 2 Thess. 2:3 explains so clear.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

DeafPosttrib: "
No scripture saying the wrath of God shall
pour down upon one saint/Christian.
"

Do the math. 1/3 of the current world population
is called "Christian". Over 2/3 of the world population
will be killed in the Tribulation period.
Some Christian is going to get zapped in the "wrath of God".

DeafPosttrib: "Rev. 13:7, and Rev. 20:4 tells us,
Christians will be present on earth to face Antichrist."

These scriptures say no such thing.
Revelation 13:7 is speaking of the Jewish Israeli elect saints,
"Christian" speaks of the mostly gentile church age born-again
elect saints. Two different groups.
Revelation 20:4, second group, is speaking of the Jewish Israeli elect saints,
"Christian" speaks of the mostly gentile church age born-again
elect saints. Two different groups.
Revelation 20:4, first group, is speaking of the
mostly gentile church age born-again
elect saints who were raptured before the tribulation period began.
Both groups are part of the first resurrection.


BTW, you still have a "when to one" and "when to two" and "when to three"
problem. OR did you skip out of it by becoming unitarian?
There are different kinds of "tribulation".
One tribulation is a horrible condition i hope you never meet,
but likely will, if the Lord tarries. One tribulation is
a TIME PERIOD.

 

Jesus slays the preterist position in Matthew 24:21-22.

Then events in Judah about 70AD are NOT the worse
things that ever happended to a group of Jews or
Christians in the history 33AD to 2003AD.

- in 70AD a million Jews were slain; a million more sold into slavery

- about 1320AD some 40 million (1/3 the population), mostly
Christian, died in Europe by the Black Death

- In 1920-21 some 8-million Russian Orthodox
were slain on the alter to the Communist god: Mammon.

Hello! reality check time.
The Tribulation Period is yet to come and will be
worse than all these three examples from history
put together. Praise God, if you are a child of God,
you WILL NOT BE THERE!

 

I love this argument. So how do futurist define words like: "soon", "near", "at-hand", and "last hour". Be sure not to prostitute the meaning. </font>[/QUOTE]Don't need the futurist to "define" it.
God defined it in 2 Peter 3:8-9 (nKJV):
But, beloved, do not forget this one thing,
that with the Lord one day is as a
thousand years, and a thousand years
as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning His
promise, as some count slackness,
but is longsuffering toward us,
not willing that any should perish
but that all should come to repentance.

Two days we have waited so far.
Two days is "soon", "near", "at-hand",
and "last hour" -- well they are unless
you are on a long trip with young children

 

I have not studied this as much as most of you so there is no way that I can debate this issue, but I know what I believe.

The Lord will not put his church through the tribulation. Why would He punish us in such a manner? God loves his children.

Would any of you as a loving parent place your children in danger and make them suffer as descibed in the tribulation to come?

The love of God is greater than our love. It is beyond our understanding.