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Featured The Church Not a Mystery

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by OldRegular, Aug 4, 2012.

  1. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I really don't care to get into it with you OR. Why don't you simply assume that we all read the Bible with the aid of the Holy Spirit. Please don't accuse me of being carnal, which is the accusation that you are making. I am a dispensationalist. I come to different conclusions then you, and I am not void of the Holy Spirit. I find your accusations here highly offensive.
     
  2. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Well perhaps we can get back to the OP: The Church is Not a Mystery!
     
  3. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    I agree with you that the Church is not, nor ever has been, a mystery. The Church is the only plan that God has, IMHHO. I just wish that the tone of some of your posts would have been in a more "postable" manner. It's not what you wolf that counts, but how you woof it.
     
  4. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Sounds good. Here is a start on the OP, I will get to the rest when I can.


    Hello OR, long time no see.

    Not being a disensationalist but simply a bible student that agrees with certain beliefs of disensational theology, it is my position that it is true that the Church, the Body of Christ, was not revealed prior to her beginning. It would be foolish to out knowledge of the Church until Paul, yet perhaps might be reasonable to say that understanding was made known through Paul.

    The fact that the Old Testament does in fact teach salvation of Gentiles does not confirm an understanding or knowledge of Gentile and Jew being ONE.

    That Messiah would be the Savior of Gentiles was common knowledge.

    For example:



    Matthew 12:15-21

    King James Version (KJV)


    15 But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;

    16 And charged them that they should not make him known:

    17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,

    18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

    19 He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.

    20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.

    21 And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.




    Not so much Gentile inclusion with Jewish believers, but specifically...Jew and Gentile trusting in Christ.

    Jews did not have a clue to that which was prophecied concerning Christ.

    Will you tell me that you believe that Israel understood that Christ would, as He stated many times in His ministry...die for the sins of the world? The closest we have to someone withing the Oldf Testament Era that could be said to clearly state this objective of Messiah was John the Baptist, that truly prophesied that Jesus was the Lamb of God Who would die for the sins of the world.

    Yet while in prison awaiting his execution, John sends his disciples to inquire of Christ whether He was the One they awaiting or not.


    We all have to make sure our beliefs, right?

    Cannot agree here: it is the individuals that lack in self control that stir up strife among the body. What is extremely sad is to see the same ones continuing to do so.

    Consider:



    Romans 2

    King James Version (KJV)


    1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.



    We should be very careful about making charges such as this, if we ourselves are more than likely to be found imperfect in these areas ourselves...right?

    Before you get too carried away with thankfulness for PD, are you aware that many of them believe Michael is Christ?

    They give good reasons for that belief as well.

    I particularly like their post-trib views. Some of these guys have done their homework. However, the reasoning they give usually helps to show their innacuracies.

    Is this taken from a PD resource, or is it your own?


    I would first point out that prophecy concerning Messiah's death did not originate with the Chief Priests and Pharisees. Prophecy after prophecy, as well as the personal testimony of Christ Himself can be cited to precede this event, as well as the hatred of the religious rulers.

    Secondly, and more imprtantly, I have to point out that while they prophecied correctly, through ill motivation, they were not, as you say here, "Rightly concerned that this resurrection would cause all men to believe on Him."

    His own resurrection did not cause all men to believe on Him.

    In luke 16 the Lord emphasizes this in the story of the rich man and Lazarus, stating that Lazarus' resurrection would not convince the rich man's brothers.

    Not...their solution. God's determination, rather.


    Understand that Caiaphas' prophecy is limited to...


    John 11

    King James Version (KJV)


    49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,

    50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.




    What follows...


    51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

    52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.



    Is the commentary of the Holy Spirit through John...not Caiaphas.




    Continued due to length...
     
  5. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    We see them mentioned here, for example:



    Isaiah 43

    King James Version (KJV)


    43 But now thus saith the Lord that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.

    2 When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.

    3 For I am the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.

    4 Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honourable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life.

    5 Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;

    6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;



    Admittedly we do see Israel called children of God, and we do see that salvation is promised to Jew and Gentile, but...how is this even a picture of the revelation concerning the Church?

    That is a given. The entire argument is flawed, in my opinion, when we consider that it was not always Jew and Gentile, but a time when there was no Israel. We would not exclude them from God's redemptive plan.



    Also please note, you are inserting body into the text. It is said they will be gathered into one, which one would be in keeping with salvation for all men, yet does not reveal that which we understand through New Testament revelation.




    Just as "Millennial Kingdom also does not appear in the Old or New Testament, both the MK and the children of God are in fact sound doctrines of scripture.

    Unless one's theology prevents one from seeing it.



    Isaiah 45:11

    King James Version (KJV)


    11 Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.




    Jeremiah 31:9

    King James Version (KJV)


    9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.



    Now, having said all that, let's get to a basic point that will bring into light the position of PDism:


    Is the calling of Israel in the Old Testament "sons" and the "children" equivalent to the term used in the new concerning the sons of God?

    For that matter, shall we say that the Angels themselves, when called sons of God is equivalent?



    John 1:12

    King James Version (KJV)


    12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:



    Decide for yourself but I would strongly suggest that the sons of God that received Christ differ from the sons of Israel and the Angels.

    Just as PD teaches that the church here:




    Acts 7:38

    King James Version (KJV)


    38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:



    ...is the same Church as this...



    Matthew 16:18

    King James Version (KJV)


    18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it
    .


    ...it is my opnion that this type of generalization without regard to scripture that does in fact teach that the Church has her beginnings in Christ after He had died is an effort in futility that should be easily seen as in error.

    While faith in Christ was a possibility for those before the Cross, they did not have specific knowledge of that which Christ would accomplish. They should have, but they didn't. We can, in hindsight and with the help of the Holy Spirit see the implications of those prophecies, but until God revealed this through the Spirit of God, not John the Babtist, nor the Lord's closest disciples...understood who and what the Church was.


    Last verse for the night:


    Matthew 11:11

    King James Version (KJV)


    11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.



    Was John not in the Kingdom of Heaven? Does he mean those that have died?

    The likely understanding refers to that promised Kingdom, the Millennial Kingdom, where no man shall say to his neighbor, "Know the Lord," for all shall know Him.

    Good night and,

    God bless.
     
  6. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Continuation...

    Again, I would mention that it was not a matter of Jew/Gentile until Israel was created.

    It should have been known to Israel that the Lord would be a Savior unto all men. So why is it that they overlooked this teaching?

    I would suggest that just as Israel was a separate nation from all others when created, so too, they thought, they would be when the promised kingdom arrived.



    Just as we do not exclude Gentiles from the salvation of the Lord, neither do we do the reverse and deny this reference could include ALL of those that belong to the Lord.


    Let's not forget Abraham.

    We see several that worship in a similar fashion to those under the Law, offering up sacrifice for sin (Job being a great pre-Israel example, as well as Abel and Noah).

    You have yet provided an example of born again Spirit-indwelt members of the Body of Christ that proclaim faith in Jesus Christ. We can tone that down to faith in Messiah, but as we see in the Gospels, even the disciple's faith in Christ is somewhat lacking.

    To compare faith in Christ and in His death to the faith of those that were not made complete (as we are specifically told in Hebrews) is like comparing the sacrifices of the Law to Christ's sacrifice.

    The Law was intended to lead them to Christ, but until He came...specific knowledge was not revealed to them.

    This is what distinguishes the Body of Christ began on Pentecost from believers before the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

    The reference is to Israel in Hosea.



    Romans 9:27-29

    King James Version (KJV)


    27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

    28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

    29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.


    To better see the context, perhaps we could look at...



    Hosea 1:9

    King James Version (KJV)


    9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.




    Now compare with...




    Romans 9:26

    King James Version (KJV)


    26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.





    All I have time for this morning,

    God bless.
     
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    to me, the non Dispy needs to explain away Romans 9-11 in order for their views to be biblical sound! that god either replaced isreal with the Church fully, or else there are NO future promised God will fulfill to the jews!
     
  8. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    The Church did not replace the nation Israel. As far as I am aware the only people using that concept are dispensationalists. Having said that dispensationalists will have to explain away the parable of the olive tree to show that the Church under the New Covenant is one with Spiritual Israel of the Old Covenant.
     
  9. Bronconagurski

    Bronconagurski New Member

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    Old Regular, your OP is insulting and untrue.

    You are one of the most divisive persons I have seen here, yet you accuse others. Nice. Can you say Pharisee?

    You made these untrue statements: "The Church Not a Mystery"

    "Scripture shows that the classic dispensational doctrine:

    1. That the Church was not revealed in prophecy at all. and

    2. That the inclusion of Gentile believers with Jewish believers in the Church was first revealed to the Apostle Paul.

    is false doctrine. "



    The church was alluded to , but remained a mystery, so your opening line that the church was not a mystery is untrue. Caiphas didn't know what he was prophesying, nor did his hearers, thus the church was still a mystery. Peter didn't know what Christ meant about building his church, thus God had to give him a vision to show him that Gentiles would be included. Still a mystery when Christ told Peter about the church. No doubt Peter was thinking synagogue and Jews.

    Do you know what the word mystery means? It means anything that is kept secret or remains unexplained or unknown. The church was not explained until the apostle Paul got a revelation from God. Jesus was not understood when he alluded to it, so it remained unknown by everyone but God. That is indisputable if you have any reading comprehension at all. The fact that the church was alluded to does not mean it was not a mystery until it was revealed to Paul

    Ephesians 3:1-6 (HCSB)
    1 For this reason, I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles—
    2 you have heard, haven’t you, about the administration of God’s grace that He gave to me for you?
    3 The mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have briefly written above.
    4 By reading this you are able to understand my insight about the mystery of the Messiah.
    5 This was not made known to people in other generations as it is now revealed to His holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit:
    6 The Gentiles are coheirs, members of the same body, and partners of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.


    So you are the one spreading false statements and causing division, OR.
     
  10. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    The following argument was presented it in the OP. I have expanded the passage from Romans to put Paul's remarks regarding the prophecy of Hosea in better context.

     
  11. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    The Apostle Paul tells us in his letter to the Church at Galatia:

    Galatians 1:6-9
    6. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
    7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
    8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
    9. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.


    Paul tells there is one Gospel, the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    ************************************************************

    What Gospel did Jesus Christ preach?

    Mark 1:14. Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

    The Gospel of the Kingdom of God.

    **************************************************************

    What Gospel did the Apostle Paul preach to the Jews?

    Acts 28:20-24
    20. For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
    21. And they said unto him, We neither received letters out of Judaea concerning thee, neither any of the brethren that came shewed or spake any harm of thee.
    22. But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against.
    23. And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
    24. And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.


    The Gospel of the Kingdom of God!

    ******************************************************************

    What Gospel did the Apostle Paul preach to the Gentiles?

    Acts 28: 28-31
    28. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
    29. And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.
    30. And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
    31. Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.


    The Gospel of the Kingdom of God!

    ********************************************************************
    The Gospel Paul preached the same Gospel that Jesus Christ preached, the only Gospel there is, to both Jew and Gentile. The Apostle Paul also tells us that this same Gospel was preached to Abraham.

    Galatians 3:8. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

    ***********************************************************************

    The Southern Baptist Faith and Message is correct: The New Testament speaks also of the Church as the Body of Christ which includes all the redeemed of all the ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.
     
    #111 OldRegular, Aug 16, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 16, 2012
  12. Bronconagurski

    Bronconagurski New Member

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    Not quite the way you put it, OR

    "The Gospel Paul preached the same Gospel that Jesus Christ preached, the only Gospel there is, to both Jew and Gentile. The Apostle Paul also tells us that this same Gospel was preached to Abraham."

    Barnes says it doesn't mean the gospel was actually preached to Abraham.

    Preached before the gospel. This translation does not convey quite the idea to us which the language of Paul, in the original, would to the people to whom he addressed it. We have affixed a technical sense to the phrase, "to preach the gospel." It is applied to the formal and public annunciation of the truths of religion, especially the "good news" of a Saviour's birth, and of redemption by his blood. But we are not required by the language used here to suppose that this was done to Abraham, or that "the gospel" was preached to him in the sense in which we all now use that phrase. The expression in Greek προευηγγελισατο means, merely, "the joyful news was announced beforehand to Abraham;" scil, that in him should all the nations of the earth be blessed. It was implied, indeed, that it would be by the Messiah; but the distinct point of the "good news" was not the "gospel" as we understand it, but it was that somehow through him all the nations of the earth would be made happy. Tindal has well translated it, "Showed beforehand glad tidings unto Abraham." This translation should have been adopted in our common version.

    In thee shall all nations be blessed. Acts 3:25; Romans 4:13. All nations should be made happy in him, or through him. The sense is, that the Messiah was to be descended from him; and the religion of the Messiah, producing peace and salvation, was to be extended to all the nations of the earth. See Genesis 12:3. Comp. Galatians 3:16 of this chapter. Notes on the New Testament Explanatory and Practical.
     
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    dispy hold that SAME way as the SCU does! it just that we also hold that not ALL of the OT prophecies/promises made to jews by god were fully fulfilled in the Church, current Age!
     
  14. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Sadly, I would say that most Southern Baptists are Rapture Ready!
     
  15. Bronconagurski

    Bronconagurski New Member

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    If the church was in the O.T. then

    how were O.T. saints saved? Christ had not died yet, and the church is the body of Christ. Now let's hear some more isogesis by the people that can spiritualize anything to get their way.
     
  16. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    For by Grace Are Ye Saved Through Faith [Eph. 2:8]

    Hebrews 11:1-10
    1. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
    2. For by it the elders obtained a good report.
    3. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
    4. By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
    5. By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
    6. But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
    7. By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
    8. By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
    9. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
    10. For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.


    And I believe that City is the New Jerusalem, the Church, the Bride of Jesus Christ.
     
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Well, it IS a Biblical doctrine!

    We just disagree if it is seperate or same as the Second Coming!
     
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Were they included in the Body of christ?
     
  19. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    There is not a single passage of Scripture that teaches the Rapture, the Snatching away of the Church!
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Do you have paul still in your bible?
     
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