The Day of Christ.

[ballfan]

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


Forget the word rapture for a second. In these verses Paul refers to the Day of Christ. It shall not come until after the apostasy and revealing of the son of perdition.

Phi 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Phi 1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;

Phi 2:16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.


Is this not the same Day of Christ that comes after the apostasy and revealing of the son of perdition?

And this one?

1Co 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Co 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Craigbythesea]

“The day of the LORD” is an old concept. In the Old Testament we find it in Amos 5:18; Joel 2:31; and Mal. 4:5. Notice that it is called “The day of the LORD” rather than “The day of the Lord.” “LORD” (in the King James Version and most standard translations except for the American Standard Version where we find “Jehovah”) is a translation of the Hebrew tetragrammaton YHWH usually pronounced by non-Jewish persons as Yahweh or Jehovah (Jewish persons generally believe that the name is too holy to be pronounced by people). “Lord” with only the "L" capitalized (in the King James Version and most standard translations) is a translation of the Hebrew word “Adonai.”

In the New Testament we find “the day of the Lord” in 2 Thes. 2:2; 1 Cor. 5:5; 2 Pet. 3:10. It is also referred to as “the day of God” (2 Pet. 3:12), “the day of Christ (Phil. 1:10; 2:16), “the day of Jesus Christ (Phil. 1:6), “the day of the Lord Jesus (1 Cor. 5:5) “the day of our Lord Jesus” (2 Cor. 1:14), “the day of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 1:8), “the day (1 Thes. 5:4; Rom 13:12; 1 Cor. 3:13; Heb. 10:25), and “that day” (2 Thes. 1:10). Compare “the last day” (John 6:39 f.) and “the great day” (Jude 6).

Although in the New Testament we find “the day of the Lord” rather than “the day of the LORD,” the Greek word Kurios translated “Lord” was used in the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Jewish Scriptures that was used by the first century church and frequently quoted by Paul) to translate the Hebrew tetragrammaton YHWH. Therefore, in standard translations of the New Testament the word “Lord” is sometimes synonymous with “LORD” in the Old Testament. Notice here that the New Testament writers viewed Jesus Christ and Yahweh (or Jehovah) to be synonymous, recognizing that Jesus shared with Yahweh (or Jehovah) his divine attributes.

[For the study of Bible prophesy, the use of the NASB is very important because it consistently and accurately translates these phrases. Unfortunately, this is not always the case with the KJV (see 1 Thes. 5:4, for example). Both the KJV and the NKJV read “day of Christ” in 2 Thes. 2:2 even though the Greek manuscript evidence against that reading is very strong. J. N. Darby, the first author to publish (Dec., 1830) the pre-trib rapture theory, reads “day of the Lord.”]

 

[ballfan]

The verses I posted use the "Day of Christ". In the greek text the KJV uses the greek word translates to Christ. I want to use the same terms the verses use so as to avoid confusion.

 

[ballfan]

Those verses tend to support the post trib version of the end.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by ballfan:
Those verses tend to support the post trib version of the end.

Well, yes, if you happen to like
the SECOND BEST explanation.

Look at 2 Thess 2:1 again:

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Here Paul says he will speak of two
equal things (the numbers are provided
for those who might have some problems
counting to two. Please note: the Bible
does NOT provide the numbers. I provide
the numbers. Some of the more adept counters
aboard will note that there are
items one and two here.

1. the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
2. our gathering together unto him (Our Lord Jesus Christ)

Now, are these two descriptors of
the same event or two seperate events.
The "and" does not tell us.

We can assume each posibility in turn,
and see which makes the most sense.
I've got a canned post showing that
it makes two seperate events.

If there are two seperate events here
in 2 Thess 2:1, then Paul is intending
to speak about both of them.

"1. the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ"
is clearly mentioned again as
"day of Christ" in verse two,
"that day" in verse three.
But where is two mentioned?
I say "2. our gathering together unto him (Our Lord Jesus Christ)"
is mentioned as "a falling away".

Any view but the pretribulation rapture/resurrection
view MUST claim that
"1. the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" =
"2. our gathering together unto him (Our Lord Jesus Christ)"
But then they have trouble understanding
Matthew 24, 2 Peter 3, Revelation, and
other scriptures

 

[ballfan]

by Ed,

Evidently "Day of Christ" is used in the KJV as a kinder,
milder day for which the Saints do long. The day of the Rapture/Resurrection
is such a day.

 

[Ed Edwards]

by Ed,
Evidently "Day of Christ" is used in the KJV as a kinder,
milder day for which the Saints do long. The day of the Rapture/Resurrection
is such a day.

Amen, Brother Ed -- Preach it!

In Matthew 24:30 (HCSB) Jesus says:

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the land will mourn; and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

There will be no morning by those getting
raptured and those getting resurrected.
Yes, the verses about "Day of Christ"
quoted in the lead-in post speak of
a gentler side of our Lord and Savivior,
the Savior side. The LORD to be feared
from the Old Testament will be coming to
destroy in judgement -- Day of the Lord.
The Christ who
saves from the New Testament will be
coming to finalize the salvation of
His own -- the Day of Christ. Amen?

That is why i think the alternate reading
of DAY OF THE LORD is right in 2 Thess 2:2.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by ballfan:
The verses I posted use the "Day of Christ". In the greek text the KJV uses the greek word translates to Christ. I want to use the same terms the verses use so as to avoid confusion.

Ignoring reality is not necessarily the best way to avoid confusion.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by ballfan:
Those verses tend to support the post trib version of the end.

Yes, they do! Or, at least they did till J. N. Darby got confused in 1830 and in turn confused about 85% of the Plymouth Brethren and about 75% of the Baptists (these figures may perhaps be a little low—I am trying not to stretch the facts like Mr. E).

 

[Craigbythesea]

I say "2. our gathering together unto him (Our Lord Jesus Christ)"
is mentioned as "a falling away".

The full moon does strange things to people!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I say "2. our gathering together unto him (Our Lord Jesus Christ)"
is mentioned as "a falling away".

The full moon does strange things to people! </font>[/QUOTE]Interesting example of the logical fallacy:
AD HOMINEM, appealing to one's prejeudices
rather than to reason.

 

[ballfan]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ballfan:
The verses I posted use the "Day of Christ". In the greek text the KJV uses the greek word translates to Christ. I want to use the same terms the verses use so as to avoid confusion.

Ignoring reality is not necessarily the best way to avoid confusion.

</font>[/QUOTE]Its not ignoring reality. The verses I posted actually use the term. I'm just giving them less places to run.

 

[ballfan]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />by Ed,
Evidently "Day of Christ" is used in the KJV as a kinder,
milder day for which the Saints do long. The day of the Rapture/Resurrection
is such a day.

Amen, Brother Ed -- Preach it!

In Matthew 24:30 (HCSB) Jesus says:

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the land will mourn; and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

There will be no morning by those getting
raptured and those getting resurrected.
Yes, the verses about "Day of Christ"
quoted in the lead-in post speak of
a gentler side of our Lord and Savivior,
the Savior side. The LORD to be feared
from the Old Testament will be coming to
destroy in judgement -- Day of the Lord.
The Christ who
saves from the New Testament will be
coming to finalize the salvation of
His own -- the Day of Christ. Amen?

That is why i think the alternate reading
of DAY OF THE LORD is right in 2 Thess 2:2.

</font>[/QUOTE]So the orginal greek was wrong? Is that what you're saying?

The word for Lord was not used. The word for Christ was.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ballfan: "So the orginal greek was wrong? Is that what you're saying? "

No.
I am saying only what i read in the Bible.
There are source text variants as to whether the
"Day of the Lord" or "Day of the Christ" should be here.

2 Thessalonians 2:2 (HCSB):

not to be easily upset in mind or troubled,
either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter
as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lordb has come.

Footnote b: Other mss read Christ

2 Thessalonians 2:2 (HCSBalternate)

not to be easily upset in mind or troubled,
either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter
as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Christ has come.

What i was suggesting is that if one looks at the
other "Day of the Christ" verses and other "Day of the Lord"
verses -- this instance is more like the other "Day of the Christ"
passages. FOr on the Day of the Christ for the saved individual, we
have nothing to fear and everything to gain; for the lost
individual on the Day of the Lord, they have everything to fear
and everything to lose.

 

[Lacy Evans]

I don't think that (in light of these scriptures). anyone can deny a post-trib rapture. My question is, "Does a clear scriptural post-trib rapture necessarily negate a seperate pre-trib rapture?"

Over and over the end is symbolized by a harvest. I've been running a combine since about 1975. I know that all thw wheat doesn't get ready the same day. There's first fruits, general harvest and gleanings. It's all there in Lev. 23 as plain as day.

Many Baptists and Brethren were partial rapturists. Both Pre-trib and post-trib are clearly scriptural, so why not both?

God is three. God is one. . . both! Man has free will, God is soverign . . . both! Jesus is God, Jesus is man . . .both! We are pre-destined, we have to choose . . .both!

Lacy

 

[Craigbythesea]

Lacy,

I don't see a pre-trib rapture anywhere in the Bible, nor is there any evidence that anyone did until the late 1820's (1826?). In which verses do you believe that you see a pre-trib rapture?

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I say "2. our gathering together unto him (Our Lord Jesus Christ)"
is mentioned as "a falling away".

The full moon does strange things to people! </font>[/QUOTE]Interesting example of the logical fallacy:
AD HOMINEM, appealing to one's prejeudices
rather than to reason. </font>[/QUOTE]I have already posted that the Greek word translated in the KJV as "falling away" is the word from which we get the English word "apostasy," and you agreed that was the case. Therefore, it would make more sense for you to argue that the world is 100% made of bubble gum and that the real name of Jesus is the Easter Bunny than to argue that the “falling away” in the KJV is the rapture? You are no fool, Ed! Why do you insist upon posting this non-sense?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Lacy Evans:
I don't think that (in light of these scriptures). anyone can deny a post-trib rapture. My question is, "Does a clear scriptural post-trib rapture necessarily negate a seperate pre-trib rapture?"

No. In fact my correct
descriptor of the posties is "one who believes
in a post-tribulation rapture only".

About 1996 I wrote this:
-------------------------------------------
\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

Five Resurrections
Found in the Holy Bible
Compared and Contrasted

The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

Definitions:

New Testament: God's contract on goy
Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
Tribulation: AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
Yisarel passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive

How to get on God's list:

Romans 10:9 (KJV): That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved.


1. Resurrection of Jesus
WHO: Jesus
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
are possible
References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
those who believed in God's Messiah
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints
WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
of the Old Testament Saints
WHEN: Some date after 26 May 2004;
at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
the Tribulation
WHERE: Worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
this resurrection is followed in but a
moment by the translation of the living
saints into a glorified heavenly body like
that of Jesus
References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints
WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
who reject the Mark of the Beast
WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
References: Revelation 20:4-6,

5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
at the beginning of eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: i don't know, God does
HOW: i don't know, God does
WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
References: Revelation 20:12-15

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
resurrections above
does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
by his revelation to us or
by our understaning of His revelation to us.
For example: Two Witnesses shall
be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

There is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
(numbered here as above):

2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
of the unjust).

The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
cleary notes that the just are raised before
the unjust.

CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarliy
assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

Note that ressurrections #2 and #3 are accompanied
by a rapture of living saints.

--compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
You are no fool, Ed! Why do you insist upon posting this non-sense?

1 Corinthians 1:21-29 (HCSB):
For since, in God's wisdom, the world did not know God through wisdom, God was pleased to save those who believe through the foolishness of the message preached.
22 For the Jews ask for signs and the Greeks seek wisdom,
23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to the Gentiles.
24 Yet to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is God's power and God's wisdom, 25 because God's foolishness is wiser than human wisdom, and God's weakness is stronger than human strength.
26 Brothers, consider your calling: not many are wise from a human perspective, not many powerful, not many of noble birth.
27 Instead, God has chosen the world's foolish things to shame the wise, and God has chosen the world's weak things to shame the strong.
28 God has chosen the world's insignificant and despised things--the things viewed as nothing--so He might bring to nothing the things that are viewed as something,
29 so that no one can boast in His presence.
30 But from Him you are in Christ Jesus, who for us became wisdom from God, as well as righteousness, sanctification, and redemption,

 

[KeithS]

Lacy,

Interesting point about the harvest. I was wondering when it would be brought up. I have been lurking on the board for a few days, so I could easily have missed it in prior posts. I find it interesting that those resurrected when Christ arose from the grave are called "the firstfruits". I would submit that the rapture is the harvest and the resurrection in Revelation is the gleanings. Corresponds nicely with the OT picture and a picture Paul paints in Corinthians. Notice the harvest analogy seems to apply to various "resurrections", not multiple "raptures". Any thoughts?