The Day of Christ.

[Ed Edwards]

Postrib: "The bride of Christ is the church (Ephesians 5:31-32)."

Amen, brother Postrib -- Preach it!

Postrib: "Again, the church is made up of all Christians of all time, whether Jew or Gentile (1 Corinthians 12:13),"

Your verse does not support your statement.
I do believe your verse would support a statement
like: Again, the church is made up of all Christians
of THE CHURCH AGE, whether Jew or Gentile.

Postrib: " for there's only one faith, and only one body (Ephesians 4:4-6), which body is the church (Ephesians 1:22-23)."

Again, this age ends. Your verse is true in the
church age. The 24-hours-day is coming when there will be no
more who believe in the Shed Blood of Jesus which saves
from sin -- a day of great apostasy -- the 24-hour-day when
the Tribulation Period Wrath Judgements of God will begin

Postrib: " Christians who will live to enter into the tribulation will be members of the church, for they (like other Christians) will have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 7:14),"

The Bible nowhere indicates any Christian will enter the
tribulation period wrath judgemetnts. Revelation 7:14 refers
to those who have "come out of the great tribulation"
by being raptured/resurrected before the tribulation period
wrath judgements start.

Postrib: " will have the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:12),"
Postrib: " and will die in the Lord (Revelation 14:13)."

These comments are applied out of sequence.
These are promises for the church age, for you and i.
Revelation 14:9-11 is a a pronouncement of the judgement to
come at the end of the tribualtion period wrath judgements.
Revelation 14:12-13 flash back to the time when John
saw the revelation. Otherwise, if Revelation 14:13
"blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on
woould refer only to those saved person who died in
the bowl wrath judgements. Those who
died in the Lord during the 7 seals and 7 trumpets would
not be blessed. Say, doesn't this dying of those in Christ
conflict with the whole idea that God protects them
in the wilderness (Rev 12:6, 12:14)?
Oh well, nobody said anything but the truth: the
pretribulation rapture/resurrection, has to fit together
and make sense.

Needless to say, i've show only one paragraph of the
preceeding post to be in error. Likely the rest are as
well, unless perchance somebody started teaching
some historical dispensationalism

Postrib: "The church will go through the tribulation (Revelation 7:14; 13:10; 14:12-13) ... "

Revelation 7:14, as i've said often before, shows the
christian born-again elect saints who were raptured before
the tribulation period started.
Revelation 14:12-13 shows us christian elect saints
in the church age, it is a flashback to the time of
John's vision.

Revelation 13:10 is a poem true throughout all
the ages of mankind.

 

[wopik]

DeafPosttrib
Rev. 1:10 do nothing with seven year of tribulation period or sabbath or Sunday either. Understand?

Verstehen sie !

 

[wopik]

Ed Edwards

The Great Tribulation is the time of God's wrath upon the wicked.

So do you believe that the wicked are Christians?


God has allowed His most devoted servants to suffer incredibly in this life, even up to the point of martyrdom like John the Baptist, Steven, James and Antipas. Moreover, many prophets of God were killed by Jezebel in her day (1 Kings 18:4, 13). But most noteworthy is how the Father allowed His only begotten son, Jesus of Nazareth, to suffer horribly and then die on the cross for all of mankind. God's love permitted all of that to happen and will also allow for the last generation of saints to face the antichrist.

 

[wopik]

Jesus promised the church the following:

Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. (Rev 3:10)

Jesus said, He'd keep Christians from this hour of trial coming on the whole earth. Hence, Christians will be delivered from the tribulation period.


The Greek word found in Rev.3:10 and translated keep you from is also found at John 17:11 and 17:15 and can mean keep through. This is what will happen, if we are the generation of saints to face the antichrist -- we will be kept through that horrible time, that is, as long as we do our part for God to continue to keep us, as the Scriptures declare. See Rev. 13:10 and 14:12.

Also remember that the prophet Daniel went into the lion's den and the three Hebrew men -- Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego -- went into Nebuchadnezzar's blazing furnace! God did not keep them from such a severe life or death test.

God "proved" or "tested" individual people and Israel many times, to find out how strong their faith was: "....God led you these forty years in the wilderness, to humble you, and to prove you, TO KNOW WHAT WAS IN YOUR HEART....." (Deut. 8:2).
--------------------------------------------

Pre-Trib Rapture Arguments Examined
http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/pre-trib.htm

 

[Craigbythesea]

Verstehen sie !

The problem is that they do not understand the Scriptures because they don't want to.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Wopik,

Thank you for your posts and for your link.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Ed,

 

[Ed Edwards]

Wopik: " ... if we are the generation of saints to face
the antichrist -- we will be kept through that horrible time,
that is, as long as we do our part for God to continue
to keep us, as the Scriptures declare. See Rev. 13:10 and 14:12."

First of all, you cannot post here if you are part of the
generation of saints to face the antichrist.
If you are a Baptist, you may post here.
If your a non-Messianic Jew you might be party of the
generation of saints to face the antichrist.
You cannot be a Baptist and a non-Messianic Jew at
the same time.
You cannot post here if you are going to be part
of the generation of saints to face the antichrist.

There are two groups of elect saints THROUGHOUT history:
1. the largely gentile (includes a few Messanic Jews) born-again
Christian elect saints
2. the Jewish Israeli elect saints.

Revelation 13:10 concerns the Jewish Israeli elect saints
during the tribulation period wrath judgements.
Reveleation 14:12 is part of a flashback to the time
of John so speaks of the Church Age so speaks of
the largely gentile (includes a few Messanic Jews) born-again
Christian elect saints.

Neither of your scriptures is appropriate for your contention.
The scripture is true, your reading of it is not correct.

Wopik: "Also remember that the prophet Daniel went into the
lion's den and the three Hebrew men -- Shadrach, Meshach
and Abednego -- went into Nebuchadnezzar's blazing furnace!
God did not keep them from such a severe life or death test"

This is probably why when Jesus speaks of the coming to
get the saints (the pretribulation rapture) He gives the
examples of Noah (who was grabbed off of the surface
of the BEFORE THE FLOOD judgement of his day) and
of Lot (who was grabbed out of Sodom BEFORE THE FIRE
judgemetn of his day). Yes, the Bible carefully teaches
pretribulation rapture, like Jesus said.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

There are two groups of elect saints THROUGHOUT history:

1. the largely gentile (includes a few Messanic Jews) born-again Christian elect saints

2. the Jewish Israeli elect saints

Not correct. You have to read Romans chapter 11; Epheisans 2:12-19; Galatians chapter 3. These are talk about the reconcile unity of Jew and Gentile together into ONE by through the Calvary.

Gal. 3:26-29 tell us, we are all children of God by faith through Jesus Christ, either Jew or Gentile whosoever faith in Christ, both are ONE and both are in Abraham's seed through Christ.

Bible does not saying in the New Testament that God have two different groups of the saints. Saints mean holy one, or Christian.

1 Corinthians 14:33 says, all churches are the saints. It means both Jews and Gentiles are saints - churches.

Revelation 13:10 concerns the Jewish Israeli elect saints during the Tribulation period wrath judgements

Rev. 13:10 does not saying saints are Jews. The context of Revelation chapter 13 talks about Antichrist will cause all nations in the world to worship him, and he will persecute Christians across the world, not just for tiny nation - Israel only, also, worldwide persecution.

The delivery of Noah & Lot does not prove the theory of pretrib doctrine. Noah was not taken out of the earth, Lot was not taken out of the earth, Noah was protect in the Ark during flood. Lot fled because of his obedience. In fact, Noah and Lot both were delivery before God's wrath pout upon unbelievers, God will do the same thing to us at Christ's coming to delivery us from the wrath - 1 Thess 1:10; 5:9, Wrath is for send unbelievers to everlasting fire because of reject and disobedience Christ. Also, Enoch was taken up alive, it does not prove it is pretrib doctrine, he was taken up 669 years LONG before the flood comes.

God protected Noah, Daniel in the den, Daniel's three friends in the furance, Hebrews in the Egypt during ten plaques. God will do the same thing to us. He knows how to deliver us, He takes care of us. God will punish upon unbelievers who reject and disobedience Christ, send them to everlasting fire.

Your theory does not prove the Bible, what it saying.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[wopik]

Ed Edwards ---

You cannot post here if you are going to be part
of the generation of saints to face the antichrist.

Some of us Sabbath-keeping BAPTISTS think sunday keepers will have to face the anti-christ, for disobeying the fourth commandment.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by wopik:
Ed Edwards ---

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />You cannot post here if you are going to be part
of the generation of saints to face the antichrist.

Some of us Sabbath-keeping BAPTISTS think sunday keepers will have to face the anti-christ, for disobeying the fourth commandment. </font>[/QUOTE]AH, so then the
mark of the Beast is Sunday Worship

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ed notes again that without the proper
doctrine of dispensation, the
echatology will fail.

"Dispensation" is simply "the economy of God".
In God's economy there is plenty of room at the
table, and all who will may come.
But the dispensation of the ages is what we generally
speak of with "doctrine of dispensation".

--------------------
"AGE" in the New King James Version (nKJV).

The KJV tends to confuse the Greek "aeon" /age/ and
Greek "cosmos" /world/ and calles them both "world".
So i'll use the nKJV for my word study on "age".
References to how old someone is (AKA: "age") have been eliminated.


Mt 12:32 (nKJV):
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man,
it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit,
it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Mt 13:39 (nKJV):
The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest
is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.

*souls shall be harvested at the end of this age

Mt 13:40 (nKJV):
Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire,
so it will be at the end of this age.

Mt 13:49 (nKJV):
So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come
forth, separate the wicked from among the just,

Mt 24:3 (nKJV):
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came
to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be?
And what will be the sign of Your coming,
and of the end of the age?"

Mt 28:20 (nKJV):
teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you;
and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

*Jesus is with us completely to the end of the age.
*the age has an end

Mr 10:30 (nKJV):
who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time--houses
and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands,
with persecutions--and in the age to come, eternal life.

*people will have eternal life, in the age to come

Lu 18:30 (nKJV):
who shall not receive many times more in this present time,
and in the age to come eternal life."

Lu 20:34-35 (nKJV):
34. And Jesus answered and said to them, "The sons of this age marry
and are given in marriage.
35. But those who are counted worthy to attain that age,
and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;

*there is a future age when marriage is NOT, after resurrection from the dead

1Co 1:20 (nKJV):
Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer
of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

*this age has a disputer

1Co 2:6 (nKJV):
However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature,
yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age,
who are coming to nothing.

*the wisdom of this age will come to nothing
*the rules of this age will come to nothing

1Co 2:8 (nKJV):
which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known,
they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

1Co 3:18 (nKJV):
Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems
to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.

2Co 4:4 (nKJV):
whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe,
lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ,
who is the image of God, should shine on them.

*the god of this age is NOT Jesus, the Christ

Ga 1:4 (nKJV):
who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver
us from this present evil age, according to the will
of our God and Father,

*this age is evil

Eph 1:21 (nKJV):
far above all principality and power and might and dominion,
and every name that is named, not only in this age
but also in that which is to come.

*there is an age to follow this age

Eph 6:12 (nKJV):
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities,
against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,
against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

* this age is dark

1Ti 6:17 (nKJV):
Command those who are rich in this present age not to be haughty,
nor to trust in uncertain riches but in the living God, who gives
us richly all things to enjoy.

* this age has rich people in it

Tit 2:12 (nKJV):
teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts,
we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,

Heb 6:5 (nKJV):
and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

This great section on the Security of the Believer
speaks of an "age to come".
* there will be "good ... powers" in the age to come.

AGES in the KJV1769:

Eph 2:7 (KJV1769):
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches
of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

There will be ages after this age.

Eph 3:5 (KJV1769):
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men,
as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Eph 3:21 (KJV1769):
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages,
world without end. Amen.

Col 1:26 (KJV1769):
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages
and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

There were ages before this age.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Some of us Sabbath-keeping BAPTISTS think sunday keepers will have to face the anti-christ, for disobeying the fourth commandment.

And I thought that the KJO gang was [edited by me].

 

[wopik]

Ed Edwards

AH, so then the
mark of the Beast is Sunday Worship

The LORD has his sign or mark (Ex. 31:13).

Sol Invictus has his.

http://www.toolong.com/sol.htm

 

[Craigbythesea]

Ed notes again that without the proper doctrine of dispensation, the echatology will fail.

Craigbythesea notes for the first time that without Ed’s doctrine of dispensationalism, Ed’s eschatology fails. That is why I personally prefer the Biblical teaching of the two covenants, Law and Grace, upon which are based the Old Testament and the New Testament. Dispensationalism confused people. Pre-tribulationalism is a proof of that. The error of Pre-tribulationalism was not made until dispensationalists came along and confused a lot of people. Very sadly, many of them are still confused .

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by wopik:
Ed Edwards

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />AH, so then the
mark of the Beast is Sunday Worship

The LORD has his sign or mark (Ex. 31:13).

Sol Invictus has his.

http://www.toolong.com/sol.htm </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Ed notes again that without the proper doctrine of dispensation, the echatology will fail.

Craigbythesea notes for the first time that without Ed’s doctrine of dispensationalism, Ed’s eschatology fails. </font>[/QUOTE]Very interesting attack against
God's truth and God's plan for the ages.
Blame it on Ed by saying "Ed's eschatology
fails" and "Ed's doctrine of dispensationalism".
It is God's dispensationalism.

Note that I didn't say, but that Craigbythesea
said there is a difference of God's economy
in different ages and different times.
Not so. I have always taught that
God's plan (i.e. economy, i.e. dispensation)
for the tribulation period wrath judgments
is to convince physical Jews to believe
He is their Messiah, just as He is
the Christ of the mostly Gentiles of
the Church age.

Note that my eschatology has a wealth of
details -- details lacking in those
who try to counter my argument. Then
most of my details are never argued against
hense stand.

Did anybody want to talk about all
the scriptute i used where the Bible
talks about ages?

 

[Ed Edwards]

The New Testament Mysteries point to
the veracity of the pretrib position.

1. Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven

Matthew 12:10-11 (nKJV):
10. And the disciples came and said to Him,
"Why do you speak to them in parables?"
11. He answered and said to them, "Because it
has been given to you to know THE MYSTERIES
OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, but to them it has
not been given.

The parables of the Kingdom of Heaven are
given in Matthew 13:3-50 and in Mark 4:26-29

I believe the Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven
describe the Church Age. The Church Age
goes from Pentacost to Rapture/resurrection/transformation.
During that age the Holy Spirit moves among
humans convicting of sin, and calling humans
to salvation through Jesus, the Christ.
This period in HIS-story can also be called
"the age of the gentiles".

2. Mystery of Israel's blindness in the Church Age

Romans 11:25-26a (nKJV):
For I do not desire, brethren, that you
should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you
should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness
in part has happened to Israel until the
fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26. And so all Israel will be saved,

I've had several interesting discussions
with Messianic Jews. They are thrilled at the
prospects that when the last possible gentile
(Hebrew: "goy") comes to accept Jesus, the Messiah,
as their personal savior -- then will Jesus
resurrect/rapture/transform the saved to that time.
Then will come the Tribulation, with the purpose
of Jesus finally winning the Jews unto Himself.


3. Mystery of the Rapture

1 Chrinthians 15:51a (NIV):
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep,
but we will all be changed -- ...

1 Thessalonians 4:14,16

Titus 2:13 (nKJV):
looking for the blessed hope and
glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jeus
Christ

Of course, such a rapture must be pretrib
when 100s of millions of saints are still alive,
for after the tribulation there will only be a few
handfuls of living saints.


4. Mystery of His Will

Ephesians 1:9-12 (NIV)
And he made known to us the mystery of his will according
to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ,
10 to be put into effect when the times will have
reached their fulfillment -- to bring all things
in heaven and on earth together under one head,
even Christ.
11 In him we were also chosen, having
been predestined according to the plan of him who
works out everything in conformity with
the purpose of his will,
12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in
Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

May God's will be done!

From Eternity past God has intended
to bring all things together in Christ.

This joining inclues the gentile church and
the race of Yisrael. At the pretribulation
rapture Jesus takes the gentile church out
of the world, and then uses the Tribulation
to bring Yisrael back to Him.


5. Mystery of Christ:
the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel

ephesians 3:2-12 (NIV):

2 Surely you have heard about the administration
of God's grace that was given to me for you,
3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation,
as I have already written briefly.
4 In reading this, then, you will be able
to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,
5 which was not made known to men in other generations
as it has now been revealed by the Spirit
to God's holy apostles and prophets.
6 This mystery is that through the gospel
the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel,
members together of one body, and sharers
together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
7 I became a servant of this gospel by the
gift of God's grace given me through the working
of his power.
8 Although I am less than the least of all God's
people, this grace was given me: to preach to
the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration
of this mystery, which for ages past was
kept hidden in God, who created all things.
10 His intent was that now, through the church,
the manifold wisdom of God should be made
known to the rulers and authorities in
the heavenly realms,
11 according to his eternal purpose
which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 In him and through faith in him
we may approach God with freedom and confidence.

This is interesting because both verse 5 and 9
define "mystery".

The gentile church and the race of Yisrael
are joint heirs of God's promise to Abraham.
At the pretribulation rapture Jesus takes the gentile church out
of the world, and then He uses the Tribulation
to bring Yisrael back to Him.


6. Mystery of Church the Bride of Christ

Ephesians 4:30b-33 (NIV):

for we are members of his body.
31 "For this reason a man will leave his father
and mother and be united to his wife,
and the two will become one flesh."
32 This is a profound mystery--but I
am talking about Christ and the church.
33 However, each one of you also must
love his wife as he loves himself,
and the wife must respect her husband

Revelation 19: (NIV):

Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready.
8 Fine linen, bright and clean,
was given her to wear."
(Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)

Does Jesus take his Bride out of the world
before the "wedding of the Lamb" (pretrib)
or after the "wedding of the Lamb" (postrib)?


7. Mystery of the Indwelling Christ in Believers

John 15:4 (NIV)
Remain in me, and I will remain in you.
No branch can bear fruit by itself;
it must remain in the vine.
Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

Galations 2:20 (NIV)
I have been crucified with Christ and I no
longer live, but Christ lives in me.
The life I live in the body, I live
by faith in the Son of God, who loved me
and gave himself for me.

Philippians 1:21 (NIV)
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

Colossians 1:25-26 (NIV)
the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages
and generations, but is now disclosed
to the saints.
27 To them God has chosen to make known
among the Gentiles the glorious
riches of this mystery, which is
Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Woah! Christianity has the other mystery religions
beatten hands down! Christ who is God dwells
within each saint!

What glory is there in the Pretribulation Rapture?
ALL GLORY!

What glory is there in dragging into the Tribulation?


8. Mystery of God, Even Christ

Colossians 2:2b (nKJV):
attaining to all riches
of the full assurance of understanding, to the
knowledge of the mystery of God, both of
the Father and of Christ,

1 Chrinthians 2:7 (nKJV):
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery,
the hidden wisdom which God ordained
before the ages for our glory.

Interesting, "before the ages". Well, then if
this wisdom of God was before the ages, it is
certainly before the Church Age.
And the infinite knowledge of God is incarnate
in Christ. And the infinite wisdome of God
which was incarnate in Christ is "for our glory".

How is it for our glory, we the saints of the Living
God, if have to traspe through the Tribulation
as some nay-sayers promote?


9. Mystery of Inquity/Lawlessness

This mystery deals with Satan's ongoing
master plan to bring forth the Antichrist
in the End Times, yet the outcome is clear.
Will Jesus let His Church be around when
the Antichrist is punished on the earth?

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8a (nKJV):
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at
work; only He who now restrains will do so
until He is taken out of the way.
And then the lawless one will be revealed, ... "

Interesting, this mystery is explained in the
pretribulation rapture book of the Bible:
2 Thessalonians. We repeat the timeline shown
in 2 Thessalonains that is clearly specified there:

1. The Church Age (with it's tribulation)
2. Day of Christ:
-2a. falling away; our gathering together to Him;
--removal of the restrainer
-2b. the revelation of the man of sin
-2c. the period of deception; the Tribulation
-2d. the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
-2e. the destruction of the man of sin

2 Thessalonians 3:2 (nKJV):
But the Lord is faithful, who will establish
you and guard you from the evil one.

And this is all summed up in one word:

'\o/' Maranatha! '\o/'


10. Mystery of Godliness

1 Timothy 3:16 (nKJV):
And without controversy great
is the mystery of Godliness:

God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.

And that is just what God had done up
to the time of the writing.
Later He will:

Rapture the Church, the Bride of Christ
Marry the Church in Heaven (Tribulation on earth)
Return to earth at the Second Advent
Destroy the Antichrist and bind Satan
Rule the earth on the Throne of David.


11. Mystery of the Seven Stars/Candlesticks

Revelation 1:20 (nKJV):
The mystery of the seven stars which you
saw in My right hand, and the seven golden
lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of
the seven churches, and the seven lampstands
which you saw are the seven churches.

Oh yes, Sweet Jesus! The 7-stars,
the 7-golden lampstands -- the Church age
in double completeness.
And when the church on earth is complete,
the Christ, Jesus, will rapture the church.
And the wedding supper of the Lamb will
take place in heaven as the Tribulation
takes place on earth.


12. Mystery, Babylon the Great:
This mystery forcasts the final
world apostate church of
the Tribulation after the Rapture.

Revelation 17:5 (nKJV), emphasis from the source:

And on her forehead a name was written:
MYSTERY,
BABYLON THE GREAT,
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE
ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.


13. Mystery of God

This mystery announces the conclusion of God's
program to consummate history during the
the last days of the voice of the seventh angel".

All the mystery prophecies concerning the
Kingdom of Christ will be fulfilled,
relevant to Israel
and the world leading to the reign of the Messiah.

Revelation 10:7 (nKJV):
but in the days of the sounding of the seventh
angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery
of God would be finished, as He declared
to His servants the prophets.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

Good morning!

You quoted verses discuss on 'age'.

Keep in mind, Matt 13:28-30 tell us, both wheat and tare are growing together till the harvest time come then gathering the tares and to separate them from the wheat. This parable apply to the present world, both believers(wheat) and unbelievers(tares) are growing together in the world in THIS age(time or period). When the end of the age come at Lord's coming, all unbelievers shall be gathering and separate from the believers, cast them into the everlasting fire.

We are in this present age, that we are walking among with unbelievers in this present world. Unbelievers shall not be separate from believers till at the end of this age at Christ's coming.

Very simple.

Also, Matt 28:19-20 tell us, Christ says, He is always with us TILL the end of this age, that mean, Christ always with us throughout persecutions, tribulations, TILL at the end of this age at His coming.

You discuss about dispensationalism. You use Eph. 3:2 word - 'administration'. That word in Greek is stewardship.

Pretrib describes the wrong idea on the definition of dispensation. They saying God have different programs, different plans, different periods.

The actual definition of dispensation means administration, stewardship.

In Greek translation (Textus Receptus) does not show the word, 'dispensation', these are saying, 'stewardship'.

You discuss about 'mystery'. I am sure that in your mind discuss on mystery relates with dispensationalism doctrine.

Firstly, You quoted 1 Corinthians 15:51a speaks of the mystery of rapture.

1 Cor. 15:51-54 talks about the mystery of our transforming body, show how mystery what will happen to Christians' body. Changing of our body into immortality are unknown to us. Because we are not yet experince of the supernatural feeling within our body with transforming. Rapture is a supernatural force and transforming body is a mystery. The mystery of the rapture will be finally show to us WHEN Christ shall come again.

Also, the twinkling of the eyes -pretrib teaches that the rapture will be quick and secert to the world without any expect or public. Our twinkling of the eyes show us HOW quick of our body all shall be changed into immortality.

Titus 2:13(nKJV)

Of course, such a rapture must be pretrib when 100s of millions of saints are still alive, for after the tribulation there will only be a FEW handsfuls of living saints

I am sure what in your mind, what you are talking about. In your mind, right now, there are millions of saints are still alive out there in the world today, when the raptures comes, MILLIONS of alive Christians shall be caught up. Then 7 years later, FEW remain alive Christians shalll be gathering at Christ's coming.

Keep in mind, during 20th Century - 100 years between from year 1900 to year 1999, millions and millions of saints were killed out in the world by the persecutions, yet, there are still PLENTY of Christians still out there in the world during 20th Century to now, while thousands of Christians are persecuting daily in the world.

1 Thess 4:17 says, 'Then we which are alive and REMAIN..." Remain means being survived.

Paul tells us, There are several or many Christians shall be survived at the time of Christ's coming.

Obivously, Christians are still out there in the world while face persecutions and tribulations. There will never be ZERO saint throughout all centuries even include future great tribulation under the reign of Antichrist TILL Christ comes at the end of the world.

Again, Titus 2:13 does not saying that we shall be escape from the coming tribulation. The blessed hope means looking forward for our eternal life at the day of redemption. Titus 2:13 refers with Titus 1:2 & 3:7 speak of eternal life.

You discuss on Romans 11:25-26. You say:

I've had several interesting discussions with Messianic Jews. They are thrilled at the prospects that when the last possible gentile (Hebrew: "goy") comes to accept Jesus, the Messiah, as their personal savior --then will Jesus resurrect/rapture/transform the saved to that time. Then will come the Tribulation, with the purpose of Jesus finally winning the Jews unto Himself

First of all, I am NOT anti-semetic. I do respect Messianic Jews. I did met them. I do have few good friends are Messianic Jews. I respect them very well.

Some of Messianic Jews are already brainwashed by learning dispensationalism doctrine on the distinction of Israel and Church. Actually, dispensationalism caused people into confusion.

I understand how Messianic Jews' burden and their heart toward blind Jews are on the way to hell without know their own Messiah. Also, I understand there are so many Jews are still heart hardened rejct Jesus as their messiah today.

Actual, the gospel still open for everyone out there in the world to both Jews and Gentiles. God desires that everyone in the world to be saved. Obivously, God desires every Jews in the world to be repented and saved - 2 Peter 3:9.

Romans chapter 11 speaks of Natural Jews are already cut off because of their unbelief, BUT, spiritual Jews are remain on the same tree because of their BELIEF. God just grafted Gentiles to the tree to join with believing Jews together, so.... ALL Israel(both Jews and Gentiles) are saved because of the result of Calvary.

God does not forsake his people- Jews. He still focus on Jews of the world today. God still command us to preach the gospel to all nations even include Israel(nation) too.

Pretrib believes when the rapture passed, then there shall be more Jews become saved the greater ever than any history throughout the centuries in the during great tribulation period.

But, that is not biblical. The number of converts over the world throughout all centuries are still the same rating or percent.

In fact, Matt 7:13-14 telling us, Christ already know there are still always small percent of the world population are going into eternal life - heaven throughout all centuries even include great tribulation.

Also, pretrib have the wrong idea on the teaching of Revelation chapter 7 talk abotu future greatest revival and greatest number of the salvations than any history of the humankind era.

Remeber the context of Rev. 7:1-8 talking about the symbolic numbers of the Israel are represent of the multitude over the world - Rev. 7:9-17. The whole context of Revelation chapter 7 gives the picture of the harvest of the saints over the world - rapture after the sixth seal broken at Christ's coming.

Your intepreting, logical, and theory on pretribulation doctrine are flaws and fallacy.

I rather follow what the Bible saying than what men saying - Colossians 2:8.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20-Amen!

 

[wopik]

Let us recall the words of Jesus, the law giver, when He stated: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart And ...thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

"Too Long in the Sun" is a book about love - the love of the lord: - the first 4 commandments:

The first : - Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
The second: - Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.
The third: - Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain;
and the fourth: - Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

The purpose of the book "Too Long in the Sun" is to examine sun worship and its influence upon the gradual "falling away" from the example set by Jesus, taught by His disciples and practiced by the believers of the first century. In other words, it is to examine how the pollutions of paganism which by way of deception have persuaded many calling themselves Christians to question the commandments of God.

Through this gradual falling away, the combining of pagan sun worship with the true worship of the Creator, we have again been encouraged to believe the age old lie that God’s laws are only suggestions. Hath God said?

Jesus Christ, who wrote the 10 commandments in stone, said: If ye love me, keep my commandments. It is interesting to consider that the Biblical phrase "Love the Lord" is found 17 times. 16 of those times it is directly associated with keeping His commandments.

The Bible warns of "another Jesus." How can we be sure that we know the Biblical Christ?

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

http://www.toolong.com/love_the_Lord.htm