The Elect, Need a clear definition of....

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scott J:
Wes, I have been away for a few days.

Did you ever answer my question about the merits of a good choice to believe?

If you didn't then now would be an opportune time to do so.

If you did, would you mind linking me to it?

You are interupting an ongoing discussion Scott, Post your question on a new topic let's see if we can arrive at agreement! </font>[/QUOTE]I asked because it is pertinent to this thread.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Then RESTATE your question!

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />You show how little you understand about the Grace of God. Those of us who believe in election can't run around saying to anyone: "I have more faith than you therefore I am saved and you are not." We have absolutely nothing to boast about. Rather the belief that God chose us unto Salvation in Jesus Christ stirs the deepest humility in our lives.

You might think so, but that is because you did not know God was giving you something he doesn't give me. Now that you know that simply little fact, you will have a hard time not sinning by boasting about that wonderful gift God gave you, but didn't give me.

You see, if God gives you something that he does not give me, then you do indeed have something to boast about, and knowing what I know about natural man, You too would be one to do the boasting. Maybe not obnoxious boasting, but boasting just the same.

I have no difficulty with God's grace whatever, I only have difficulty with your understanding of it. </font>[/QUOTE]Wes don't you ever get tired of being wrong Outwest?

 

[Wes Outwest]

Well the east coast has always accused the west coast of being wrong about something. But that doesn't explain the growth of California to 33 Million people, 60% of which is tranplanted from the eastern 1/4th of the US!

I am, by the way, a fifth generation Californian! And Yes I did live for 2 years in the military in South Carolina! Didn't find much there to make me want to stay.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
Then RESTATE your question!

If man's choice to believe (leading to saving faith) is the independent, first act that results in salvation and assuming that we agree that this is a good choice then how can God's granting of salvation to someone based on this choice and faith not be considered a recognition of merit?

If one person chooses "good" and another chooses "bad" then the one who chose good deserves merit for being wiser, more intelligent, more discerning, etc, etc, right?

If you say this is not true then please answer- why does one choose correctly? Who gets the credit for that choice?

It is your contention as best as I understand it that both the receipt and continuance of salvation is dependent on the free will choice of the man, right? If so then this is by definition salvation by merit.

 

[Wes Outwest]

If man's choice to believe (leading to saving faith) is the independent, first act that results in salvation and assuming that we agree that this is a good choice then how can God's granting of salvation to someone based on this choice and faith not be considered a recognition of merit?

God Grants Salvation to those who POSSESS faith! Not to those who know how to make good decisions! God set the condition that faith is what he looks for in man. He gives man EVERY reason to POSSESS FAITH! He GAVE man ever means of acting on those REASONS to arrive at FAITH.

NO, God does not GIVE FAITH to man, he requires that man have it as the result of using the means provided for receiving the word of God, then forming faith in that Word that by definition is faith in the Author of that Word.

If one person chooses "good" and another chooses "bad" then the one who chose good deserves merit for being wiser, more intelligent, more discerning, etc, etc, right?

That would be true if God judges man according to man's merit! Where in God's word does he reveal that He judges man by man's merit? Please list the scriptures that say that God is impressed with man sufficient to granting salvation based on man's merit! He does not, so it is not true.

If you say this is not true then please answer- why does one choose correctly? Who gets the credit for that choice?

The choice is not what is important, the possession of the criteria for Salvation is what Determines God's Action at the appointed hour.

It is your contention as best as I understand it that both the receipt and continuance of salvation is dependent on the free will choice of the man, right? If so then this is by definition salvation by merit.

That is your opinion! It is not mine!

Faith in God is a condition of the human spirit that begins with "Belief"! Belief is a condition that begins with "Believe"! Believe may be either an active or passive human decision. One can believe without ever making a conscious decision. I would call that acceptance, which is an "either/or" or "both" situation.

Nevertheless all of this is dependent upon knowledge of that which is related to God. None of it is based on that which has no valid explanation. God said, "For lack of knowledge my people perish!"

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
And Yes I did live for 2 years in the military in South Carolina! Didn't find much there to make me want to stay.

I have learned to be thankful in all things!

 

[OldRegular]

Wes

You keep posting the words: God said, "For lack of knowledge my people perish!"

Two questions:

1. Could you please give a reference for this?

2. What does this passage have to do with salvation if the people are already God's?

 

[Wes Outwest]

1. Here it is
2. read it you'll see.

An indictment against the priests (Preachers) Hosea 4:4-11 4 But let no one denounce, no one rebuke; it is you, priest, that I denounce. 5 Priest, you will stumble in broad daylight, and the prophet will stumble with you in the dark, and I will make your mother perish. 6 My people perish for want of knowledge. Since you yourself have rejected knowledge, so I shall reject you from my priesthood; since you have forgotten the teaching of your God, I in my turn shall forget your children. 7 The more of them there have been, the more they have sinned against me; they have bartered their Glory for Shame. 8 They feed on the sin of my people, they are greedy for their iniquity. 9 But as with the people, so with the priest, I shall punish them for their conduct, I shall pay them back for their deeds. 10 They will eat but never be satisfied, they will play the whore but not grow more prolific, since they have deserted Yahweh to give themselves up 11 to whoring.

Why is it the people are wanting for knowledge. Those "Elected" to teach them have failed and become like them.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
And Yes I did live for 2 years in the military in South Carolina! Didn't find much there to make me want to stay.

I have learned to be thankful in all things!
</font>[/QUOTE]I too am thankful in all things...including transfer to the West where I am at home.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
Wes

You keep posting the words: God said, "For lack of knowledge my people perish!"

Two questions:

1. Could you please give a reference for this?

2. What does this passage have to do with salvation if the people are already God's?

Wes

You keep posting the words: God said, "For lack of knowledge my people perish!"

Two questions:

1. Could you please give a reference for this?

2. What does this passage have to do with salvation if the people are already God's?

 

[Wes Outwest]

Hosea 4:6
"My people perish for want of knowledge."

"For lack of knowledge my people perish!"

Do you not agree that these two phrases mean exactly the same thing?

Let me add some empasis from Hosea.

Hosea 6:1-6 Come, let us return to Yahweh. He has rent us and he will heal us; he has struck us and he will bind up our wounds; 2 after two days he will revive us, on the third day he will raise us up and we shall live in his presence. 3 Let us know, let us strive to know Yahweh; that he will come is as certain as the dawn. He will come to us like a shower, like the rain of springtime to the earth. 4 What am I to do with you, Ephraim? What am I to do with you, Judah? For your love is like morning mist, like the dew that quickly disappears. 5 This is why I have hacked them to pieces by means of the prophets, why I have killed them with words from my mouth, why my sentence will blaze forth like the dawn- 6 for faithful love is what pleases me, not sacrifice; knowledge of God, not burnt offerings.

PS, there are 157 appearances of "Knowledge" in scripture vs 69 for both Repentance and repent. Most of the knowledge appearances refer to Knowledge of God...that is lacking among the common ordinary Jew, who by all scripture are the "elect" peoples of the world!

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
Hosea 4:6
"My people perish for want of knowledge."

"For lack of knowledge my people perish!"

Do you not agree that these two phrases mean exactly the same thing?

Let me add some empasis from Hosea. </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Hosea 6:1-6 Come, let us return to Yahweh. He has rent us and he will heal us; he has struck us and he will bind up our wounds; 2 after two days he will revive us, on the third day he will raise us up and we shall live in his presence. 3 Let us know, let us strive to know Yahweh; that he will come is as certain as the dawn. He will come to us like a shower, like the rain of springtime to the earth. 4 What am I to do with you, Ephraim? What am I to do with you, Judah? For your love is like morning mist, like the dew that quickly disappears. 5 This is why I have hacked them to pieces by means of the prophets, why I have killed them with words from my mouth, why my sentence will blaze forth like the dawn- 6 for faithful love is what pleases me, not sacrifice; knowledge of God, not burnt offerings.

PS, there are 157 appearances of "Knowledge" in scripture vs 69 for both Repentance and repent. Most of the knowledge appearances refer to Knowledge of God...that is lacking among the common ordinary Jew, who by all scripture are the "elect" peoples of the world! </font>[/QUOTE]Wes

Nothing you say above, in fact nothing you have ever said has any relevance to the Biblical truth of the doctrine of election.

 

[Wes Outwest]

That's perhaps because the Doctrine of Election is not Biblical!

In fact, what does it mean when God says through Hosea "Come, let us return to Yahweh (God, for those who don't know). He has rent us and he will heal us, he has struck us and he will bind up our wounds"? What about the resurrection in verse 2?
And verse 6 "For faithful love is what pleases me, not sacrifice; Knowledge of God, not burnt offerings" Does "faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God", not fit with verse 6?

It is not some mysterious regeneration, or "prevenient Grace" that saves us, it is indeed knowledge of God that brings us faith through which we are saved!

OldRegular,
The fact that you cannot see thruth and relavence in what I've posted, indicates just how blind you are to the truth!

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
That's perhaps because the Doctrine of Election is not Biblical!

OldRegular,
The fact that you cannot see thruth and relavence in what I've posted, indicates just how blind you are to the truth!

Wes, Outwest

Like you I once was blind but now I see. Hopefully one day you will come to the knowledge of the truth. However, this cannot happen as long as you take pride in your superior knowledge. You claim this knowledge stimulated you by strength of your will, to dredge up out of that which Scripture states is spiritually dead, the human attribute of Saving Faith.

 

[Wes Outwest]

The human attribute of FAITH in GOD is what God sees in humans when saving humans!

Likewise the lack of human faith in God causes God to discard those who have no faith.

There has never been a single human saved that lacks human faith in God!

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
The human attribute of FAITH in GOD is what God sees in humans when saving humans!

Likewise the lack of human faith in God causes God to discard those who have no faith.

There has never been a single human saved that lacks human faith in God!

Wrong again Wes!

Faith in God is given to man after man has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit. "The human attribute of FAITH in GOD" is non existent.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Well, I guess that proves that you do not know everything!

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
Well, I guess that proves that you do not know everything!

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
The human attribute of FAITH in GOD is what God sees in humans when saving humans!

That is by definition "merit". God recognizes this good attribute in humans that did not come from him but rather from the choices and decisions of the man.

There has never been a single human saved that lacks human faith in God!

So you acknowledge that you believe the critical element in salvation is not God's will or even His provision in Christ but rather the human choice to accept it?