The Elect, Need a clear definition of....

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:


</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Truth comes from the word of God,

Yes. It does. Noteably, the scriptures declare that the natural man cannot discern these things of the Spirit... that kind of backs you into another corner. Without the indwelling Spirit, man cannot understand... but you say he must understand and believe before being regenerated.</font>[/QUOTE]Have you no understanding? Man hears...absorbs truth, then man accepts...believes. It is that hearing and believing that is regeneration. And before you jump all over that, NO it is not of man's doings! That is the way God made it! </font>[/QUOTE]You question my understanding when you refuse to see the most fundamental thing in this exchange?

The Bible says that natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit. You acknowledge that "hearing and believing" is regeneration. If they hear and believe then they are no longer natural men. Hearing and believing are the actions of a regenerate nature.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Then if you agree that hearing and believing are regeneration as I've said, then you must agree that the hearing and believing is not preceded by regeneration!

You cannot have regeneration precede regeneration!

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
Then if you agree that hearing and believing are regeneration as I've said, then you must agree that the hearing and believing is not preceded by regeneration!

You cannot have regeneration precede regeneration!

I am saying that "hearing and believing" are a property of a regenerate nature. When God regenerates someone it opens their "hearing" and discernment so that they can understand and believe. These things are part of the regenerate nature just like blindness and unbelief are the predictable responses of the natural man.

I have stated before that it is lacking to think of this in strict terms of chronology. The more accurate way to look at it is priority or cause/effect. God's will in election and regeneration is preeminent/ultimate. Man's actions are subordinate and a direct result of God's act of grace toward the individual.

If you must look at it chronologically then election and regeneration come first because they are the cause for what follows. But that is not a wholly accurate way to look at it.

We would scoff at the idea that Lazarus chose to be resurrected then Jesus raised him. Jesus knew what He would do, delayed 4 days, then came and raised Lazarus. All of Lazarus' living activities were predicated on Christ's act of grace in raising him up... and all of it was by the divine will of God.

The idea that a child's choice to be born is the cause of his birth is ridiculous.

These are the types and analogies used to illustrate salvation. Man's choice is not the cause of God's but rather God's choice is the cause of the regenerate man's.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Well you have reiterated the Calvinist position once again!

Regeneration occurs when what you have heard makes enough sense to you, that you CHANGE your spirit to acceptance of things spiritual. It is then that the Holy spirit who has been knocking, while you've been doing the hearing, at the door and is permitted to enter into your own spirit, and together you become renewed with Christ, the Word, in you and the Holy spirit guiding you! Hearing, accepting, believing, changing, that is regeneration!

 

[rc]

Hey Wes,
I found a book written by J. R. Minius called "Resurrect Yourself!". I'll send you a book and you can go out to your local cemetery, set up a stand, and cry out to all those dead people that you are giving away that book so they can resurrect themselves!

Scott.... I bet Wes honestly thinks there's a good chance that many would crawl out of the grave to get one!!! But gee... I guess they wouldn't be dead then would they...

Wes, every time you debate you always refer back to your point instead of explaining the point given to you as a counterpoint... Please explain Scott's point of Lazurus' coming back to life? Did he choose to? Or was it the power of Christ? Why did Christ just choose Lazurus? Why not the others that where buried there? Was that fair?

Regeneration occurs when what you have heard makes enough sense to you....

So what your saying is, the people that don't believe aren't smart enough? Have you ever done a theology class? Even in liberal schools don't you understand that your response is self righteous?

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by rc:
Hey Wes,
I found a book written by J. R. Minius called "Resurrect Yourself!". I'll send you a book and you can go out to your local cemetery, set up a stand, and cry out to all those dead people that you are giving away that book so they can resurrect themselves!

Scott.... I bet Wes honestly thinks there's a good chance that many would crawl out of the grave to get one!!! But gee... I guess they wouldn't be dead then would they...

Wes, every time you debate you always refer back to your point instead of explaining the point given to you as a counterpoint... Please explain Scott's point of Lazurus' coming back to life? Did he choose to? Or was it the power of Christ? Why did Christ just choose Lazurus? Why not the others that where buried there? Was that fair?

Regeneration occurs when what you have heard makes enough sense to you....

So what your saying is, the people that don't believe aren't smart enough? Have you ever done a theology class? Even in liberal schools don't you understand that your response is self righteous?

Great post rc. I have no doubt that Wes, Outwest's will repent of all his doctrinal errors.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
Well you have reiterated the Calvinist position once again!

Regeneration occurs when what you have heard makes enough sense to you, that you CHANGE your spirit to acceptance of things spiritual.

Nope. That by definition would be saving yourself. A man can no more quicken his dead spirit by his own will than he can quicken his dead body by his own will.

You still insist on giving man credit that rightly goes to God and turning salvation by grace into salvation by merit. If you hear enough to make "sense to you" then that is your mind ACTING on your goodness- that is a work. If you CHANGE your spirit- that is definitely a work.

It is then that the Holy spirit who has been knocking,

Where does the Bible say that the Holy Spirit stands knocking? I think you are referencing Rev 3:20 and that verse in CONTEXT is Christ speaking to the lukewarm church at Laodicea.

You really have to pluck the verse out of context to make it a proof text for sotierology.

while you've been doing the hearing,

He that HATH an ear... hears. That directly means that there are some without an ear to hear. Neither chose to have/have not hearing. God grants the hearing.

You still haven't dealt with the plain fact that the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit.

at the door and is permitted to enter into your own spirit, and together you become renewed with Christ, the Word, in you and the Holy spirit guiding you!

What you have described is a cooperative effort in saving you. The biblical position is that God saves you.

Hearing, accepting, believing, changing, that is regeneration!

Hearing, accepting, believing, changing are only possible when one is regenerated having their ears and eyes opened and their spirit re-born.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Scott J:
Hearing, accepting, believing, changing are only possible when one is regenerated having their ears and eyes opened and their spirit re-born.

And a hearty AMEN to that.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Prove it!

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
Prove it!

The Bible proves it but you won't believe it.

 

[OldRegular]

Wes has yet to explain why,according to his doctrine, some believe and some don't.

 

[Wes Outwest]

OldRegular can't read, or chooses to ignore!

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
OldRegular can't read, or chooses to ignore!

Prove it!

 

[here now]

while you've been doing the hearing,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott J's response:
He that HATH an ear... hears. That directly means that there are some without an ear to hear. Neither chose to have/have not hearing. God grants the hearing.

You still haven't dealt with the plain fact that the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit.


Hearing, accepting, believing, changing, that is regeneration!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Scott J's response:
Hearing, accepting, believing, changing are only possible when one is regenerated having their ears and eyes opened and their spirit re-born.


here now's response to Wes Outwest:

You've heard that a time or THOUSANDS,huh?

Good luck Scott. I've spent lots of time trying to get Wes to understand this and finally I resigned to the fact that:
for one to understand spiritual things there has to be Divine Intervention.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
Wes has yet to explain why,according to his doctrine, some believe and some don't.

Actually he finally admitted that it was by the merit of their choice.

Not a scripturally correct answer but at least an intellectually honest one.

 

[Wes Outwest]

If someone tells you that you must hear, accept, and repent; does that mean that the one who is telling you to do that, is actually going to make you able to do it?

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
If someone tells you that you must hear, accept, and repent; does that mean that the one who is telling you to do that, is actually going to make you able to do it?

No... it doesn't. What a silly meaningless question.

God the Holy Spirit enables the hearing and sends the messenger. If one doesn't have spiritual hearing (a regenerate spiritual nature) then it really doesn't matter what, when, or how they are told.... they won't hear, accept, nor repent.

You can talk or yell to a corpse all you want but it will never hear, accept, nor change its behavior... it will simply continue to do what the nature of a corpse is to do... rot.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Scott J:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by OldRegular:
Wes has yet to explain why,according to his doctrine, some believe and some don't.

Actually he finally admitted that it was by the merit of their choice.

Not a scripturally correct answer but at least an intellectually honest one. </font>[/QUOTE]I left the thread for awhile so I missed that post. Do you know what "merit of their choice" means? I don't. Does it mean some people are "gooder" than others, or does it mean some people are "smarter" than others, or does it mean the "Holy Spirit works harder" on some people than He does on others, or something else?

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scott J:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by OldRegular:
Wes has yet to explain why,according to his doctrine, some believe and some don't.

Actually he finally admitted that it was by the merit of their choice.

Not a scripturally correct answer but at least an intellectually honest one. </font>[/QUOTE]I left the thread for awhile so I missed that post. Do you know what "merit of their choice" means? I don't. Does it mean some people are "gooder" than others, or does it mean some people are "smarter" than others, or does it mean the "Holy Spirit works harder" on some people than He does on others, or something else? </font>[/QUOTE]NOT MY TERMINOLOGY! it is Scott J's terminology and his definitions!

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by Scott J:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
If someone tells you that you must hear, accept, and repent; does that mean that the one who is telling you to do that, is actually going to make you able to do it?

No... it doesn't. What a silly meaningless question.

God the Holy Spirit enables the hearing and sends the messenger. If one doesn't have spiritual hearing (a regenerate spiritual nature) then it really doesn't matter what, when, or how they are told.... they won't hear, accept, nor repent.

You can talk or yell to a corpse all you want but it will never hear, accept, nor change its behavior... it will simply continue to do what the nature of a corpse is to do... rot. </font>[/QUOTE]The Scriptures tell us:
"let him who has ears hear",
"For by grace are ye SAVED THROUGH FAITH"
"Faith cometh by HEARING, and HEARING by the WORD of GOD"
"Whosoever Believeth in Him"..."accepts" is another word for believeth.
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved"(paraphrase)
"if you believe in me, you believe on the one who sent me" (paraphrase)
"Repent, for the kingdom of God is..."
"Repent, ...."
"Repent, ...."

Now, you say that the one who tells us to do those things "knows that we are not able to hear, accept and repent" except that we be regenerated?

That's like driving down a highway reading all the traffic signs but not being able to respond to any of them because we are not in control of the car. Purely asinine! Stupid is another word for it! It's like telling someone who can read and understand highly technical secular books that he cannot read the bible and understand it! Wow, that's dummer-n-dirt!

Reading the bible has something for everyone, regardless of their spiritual state! And that something might just be enough to persuade the reader, to open him/herself up to the message and be regenerated! IT WORKS!