How do we interpret parables?
A person once said that it is an earthly story with a heavenly meaning.
A parable is an illustration meant to convey one essential truth. Not everything in the parable must be absolutely corresponding to some other truth. For example, in the parable of the lost coin what does the broom (or whatever she uses to sweep the floor) represent? It represents nothing more than a broom to clean a floor. It doesn't have a corresponding deeper truth such as representing "the cleansing power of the Holy Spirit," etc. Not everything in the parable corresponds to something. They are what they are.
It is an illustration mean to convey one essential truth.
Now I don't know how you come to the conclusions you do from the parable given in Luke 19. It was a parable about responsibility.
He gave his servants ten pounds, and told them to "occupy till I come."
When he came:
One servant's pound had gained ten pounds.
One servant's pound had gained five.
And the other servant had simply wrapped it up and done nothing with it.
He was "irresponsible. Thus the Master said:
Luk 19:25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
Luk 19:26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
Luk 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
He was speaking to the Pharisees. The overall topic was the Kingdom, which he had been speaking on for much of the time The subject here was our responsibility in relation to the Kingdom. An irresponsible person would not be fit for the kingdom.
Walvoord summarizes it this way:
Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees, to those that hated him, to those who even at that time were plotting to kill him. You are applying the motives of these people to every single person on earth. Do you really think that is a fair assessment of all mankind when the Bible says otherwise.
The truth of the matter is, God has set the conditions about us, around mankind that they will indeed seek him.
Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
--They can seek him. They will seek him. There is nothing to prevent them from seeking him.
There is plenty of evidence of this world-wide that goes directly contrary to Calvinistic teaching demonstrating what I believe the Bible to be true and Calvinism to be wrong. I have seen it in my own personal witness and read about it in other Christian media.
I have related this to you before: A Muslim college student, upset with the teachings of Islam, is now seeking out the truth of Christianity because she no longer can believe in what they are telling her about Islam.
In the Middle East many are turning to Christ for that very same reason. They seeking out "the true "God." When the Bible says, "No man seeks after God," first realize:
It is a quote from a psalm which is a general observation about mankind, not an absolute statement about all man.
Secondly, It does not say that man cannot seek God or does not have the ability to seek God.
Christ is the light of the world.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
He dispels the darkness away. Do not say "They cannot see their need for a Savior," for many do. Why would you say such a thing? The Bible doesn't teach that for each and every person. Obviously it didn't teach that for Cornelius.
Even for the Philippian jailer, he wasn't regenerated before he saw his need for a Savior. Why do they ask to be saved? They see their need.
Your Calvinism has taken you too far. The Bible does not teach Total Inability.
Yes, they were trying to kill him; to crucify him on false charges. Really, do you put everyone in that same boat? I don't.
I believed in the deity of Christ before I was saved. I accepted his "Messiahship" before I was saved. I accepted the fact that He was "the Lord" before I was saved. The RCC teaches many orthodox teachings. But I wasn't saved. The Pharisees denied all of this and out of hatred of these claims crucified him. They were envious of him. Not everyone is like the Pharisees.
Who is arguing against that?
The Eternal Purpose of Christ PT 3
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by SovereignGrace, Aug 17, 2015.
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SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
2) We are commanded to be holy even as He is holy. By your standards God is being unfair.
3) Jesus told the adultress to 'go and sin no more' and by your standards God was being unfair.
He commands us to do that which we can not do to show He does for us that which we can not do. But to you, that is Him being unfair.
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SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Just like Lazarus was seeking Him while in the tomb. This was an actual event, but it has a 'parabolic language' to it. What Christ did to raise Lazarus physically, He does to us Spiritually. We were dead in our transgressions and sins[Eph. 2:1]. We could not truly hear the gospel. Sure, we could with our natural ears, but in order to be saved, the ears of the spiritual man have to hear the gospel. Lazarus' friends could have came and cried 'Lazarus come out of there' until they turned blue in the face and he would not have came out. Why? He was dead. That is with our preaching, monsieur. We preach to sinners and yet they walk out of the church still lost. Why? They are dead in their sins and can not hear. Now, when Jesus came along, He spoke to Lazarus and he heard His glorious voice calling him out of death and darkness unto Life and Light. When Lazarus heard, he had no other choice than to come out. He was effectually called from death unto life. That is the way God works on the souls of sinners. A God called preacher preaches the gospel and God moves within that gospel message and quickens a sinner unto life. He now hears the gospel with the ears of his soulish man and is drawn to Christ. He comes out of his spiritual tomb to Christ. He was quickened and responded to the effectual calling of God via the gospel.
Too lengthy...had to cut this short... -
SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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There are poetical and figurative expressions, just as there is in the NT.
Why does the RCC believe in transubstantiation? Because they (like you) want to use a figure of speech (a metaphor) literally. Is that proper hermeneutics?
Some scripture is written only to Jews or only to certain people. Who was the statement "Hath God said?" written to? Context is key.
There are anthropomorphisms. We need to recognize them. "I will shelter you with my wings. Does God have "wings"? Really?
We recognize scripture for what it is, and consider the context. If I cannot recognize the historical context, the figures of speech, etc., then how can I properly interpret the scriptures?
If I accept as my friend one that has loved me, sacrificed for me, been with me through the tough times, then that is fair.
If don't accept as my friend the one who hates me, turns his back on me, then that is fair.
Salvation is by grace through faith and that not of yourself -
SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Whew!! At least neither of us posted a novel this time. :laugh: -
Of course it is an absolute statement. You always seek to minimize the import of the Word of God.
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As I have said before. He tries to put God in the dock and judge Him. But DHK is a mere mortal. God does as He please with His creation. Everything He does is holy and right. The Lord dispenses mercy as He wills. He hardens as He wills. The Lord owes no one mercy. He is perfectly just. He does not have to give account of Himself to anyone. God is God --the Potentate of all. -
It is obvious you care nothing about scripture and blindly follow a man, one named Calvin. If you cared about Scripture you would look to it and heed it.
Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
In verse 27 God has created the circumstances such that man will seek the Lord. He is a merciful God and desires man to seek him. Your cherry picking of a few verses which you think deny the vast number of verses which proclaim this truth does nothing to eradicate the truth of the Word of God. It won't go away because of Calvin, or you.
This ignorance--that man should seek after the one and true God, and not such idols as Calvin, God formerly winked at. But now he commands all men to repent. Notice he commands all men to repent.
He does not command them to be regenerated so that the can repent. No.
He commands them to repent no matter how unregenerate they may be. These were pagan idolaters that Paul was addressing. He says "all men everywhere," excluding no one. That means the world. Don't let your puny Calvinistic rationalization try and translate that as "the elect," for it doesn't say that. All men everywhere," is a fairly clear expression of truth that should not be tampered with.
That command is universal. It is to everyone. It is to be obeyed. It is not to be ignored. What happens if it is ignored?
Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
He will judge THE WORLD in righteousness. For those who have ignored Jesus Christ, rejected his offer of salvation, have not repented, they will suffer the consequences, and be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment, as per Rev.20:15. They will have no excuse (Rom.1:20).
Yes, God is a fair God. He is a just God. He is a God of love. He loved us so much that he sent his son to die for our sins. That fact should not be ignored by others. -
1 Chronicles 26:18 At Parbar westward, four at the causeway, and two at Parbar.
--Does it help you to prove the fairness of God, Total Inability, the justice of God, etc? But it is inspired, just as much as any other verse in the Bible. And it is profitable. Without its context it is not of much profit to you. Many of the verses you use are taken out of their proper context and misused or abused.
Why did God create man? Basic question.
Your answer is so that he could be fair in damning all of us to hell.
But that is not the answer the Confessions give.
The Confessions say that God made man for his own glory.
That is the opposite of what you are saying.
How can God be fair if he is doing that which is against his will and his nature to do? -
SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )
3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )
4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )
5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )
6._____ As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only. ( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )
7._____ The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election; so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel. ( 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 5; 2 Peter 1:10; Ephesians 1:6; Romans 11:33; Romans 11:5, 6, 20; Luke 10:20 )
None of these support your claims, monsieur. Care to expound your thoughts?
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SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
DHK,
You mentioned Joseph and his dealings with the cupbearer and the baker so I will now finally address it. I am not dodging any subject you throw at me,mon ami, but you try to throw too much at me and at times I can not answer all of them at once. So, please be patient with me.
Joseph was not placing his faith in them, but God. Look at how Joseph found favor in every place he went. He found favor in Potiphar's sight. When his wife lied and got Joseph tossed into prison, he found favor in the prison warden's sight, too. He was trusting God to use those men, either of them or both, to get him out of prison.
It even says in Genesis 39 Joseph found favor in his eyes and became his attendant. Potiphar put him in charge of his household, and he entrusted to his care everything he owned. From the time he put him in charge of his household and of all that he owned, the Lord blessed the household of the Egyptian because of Joseph. The blessing of the Lord was on everything Potiphar had, both in the house and in the field.[vss. 4,5] That to me shows Joseph as being an OT type of Christ. Why? God blesses us not because we are anything special, but only because of Christ. That is where your theology runs off the skids, mon ami. It is almost like you are saying "foul, foul, foul," if we say that God is being fair for sending sinners to hell.
A.W. Pink(I think it was him) wrote concerning God blessing people because of others and used this Joseph account. He also expounded upon how this typified how God blesses others only because of their relationship with Christ. -
Actually this whole story runs more in favor with you than me. What I was doing was just demonstrating that individuals such as the baker an butler can put their faith in someone else but God, i.e., Joseph. And even if Joseph put his trust in God we can't say that the baker and butler were putting their trust in God by proxy. They weren't. That was the only point I was making and if taken only that far I have made my point.
If you take the story farther, you can see that the Pharaoh had mercy on one and not mercy on the other. For what reason we know not. You can either make this out to be a picture of the God that Calvinism paints, or the King that is found in the Book of Esther cannot be depicted as God. Ahasuerus was a foolish king who was moody. Esther said "If I perish, I perish." The king was not noted for consistency. When someone entered into his court he would behead some and have mercy on others, perhaps just according to the mood he was in. Thus the hesitation of Esther. No one had entered into the court for some time. Surely this is not a picture of God. We can enter into his courts at anytime.
And so can the unsaved. Whosoever will may come. -
There is an apocryphal story (I believe in the "Hidden Books") of Jesus making clay pigeons to fly, but then when they return he breaks them. Does that sound like Jesus? It sounds like the picture you paint of God--creating things in order to destroy them.
3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )
How dare one say that leaving "others" to "just condemnation" is to the "praise of his glorious justice." Nothing could be farther from the truth.
You have even contradicted this yourself.
You said that we all deserve this. For God to select some to eternal life and others to eternal damnation (leaving them to eternal damnation) is not biblical and cannot be supported by the scripture given. This was written by Calvinists, not by people paying close attention to scripture.
When we look at Scripture we see the same God wooing and pleading Adam to come back to him, and then finally providing a sacrifice for him, reconciling Adam back to fellowship with him. There was no eternal condemnation upon Adam.
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He will judge the world with justice. That means a good part of humanity is to be condemned to Perdition. He mercies His elect and hardens the rest. -
You are fixated. You are obsessed. You are suffering from an acute case of Calvin derangement syndrome. You need treatment. You need to make a pledge not to utter his name when others have not. Further, every time you say something evil of him you are evidencing your own evil heart. Have you thought of that? So I propose that a moratorium is in order. No mention of his name should be allowed. Every time you violate this principle you will be reminded of your sin. -
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Rippon
he secretly desires to believe these things...perhaps when he posts...he is really joking! -
SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
God never wooed and pleaded with Satan and his minions to come back into fellowship with Him. He justly(fairly) condemned them to the lake of fire without any offer of reconciliation. God does with His creation, both angels and man, as He deems fit.
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