The eternal purpose of Christ pt2

PreachTony

(You can try to say that Election only works one way, but that simply cannot be in the case of a sovereign God as Calvinism describes Him. )

Go to the confession of faith 1689 version.....take the chapter on the decree, then work through it line by line.....show where it is wrong.....then give your SCRIPTURES ALONE explanation of election and the decree.


(If God has selected to save those He saves, then He must also have selected to punish those He punishes. )
Why do you believe He must have to do this?


(Man has no says so in either case, )
Was man present before the world was and if he was...was man going to dictate to God what me must do as you are suggesting?

 

Yes. The Lord does give the unsaved the power to work miracles.

If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,

2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;

3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. (Deut. 13:1-3)

 

The Jews killed the Gift.

How much clearer must Scripture be before you realize Christ is the gift no unregenerate wants?

 

First I will state that I can't say that I am not a Calvinist, however I will say I am an electionist. Ultra Monogenesis.

To my knowledge it is not stated anywhere in the Word, that anyone is predestined to the lake of fire.

However this is stated. Eph. 1:4,5 According as he (God the Father) hath chosen us in him (Lord Jesus Christ) before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Now verse 9 states that God the Father has made known something to those who were, "predestined," concerning something which he had purposed in himself.

Verse 10
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him ([self], I guess):

I would like your thoughts on verse 10 relative to the un-predestined.

Some other things to consider would be verses such as Phil 2:10,11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Rev 22:1,2,17 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


See also thread; Every Knee Shall Bow in Gen Baptist Dis, forum

 

And therein lies the error of Calvinism. There was no regeneration prior to the death, burial and glorification of Jesus Christ (John 7). And as we know, not all Jews wanted Jesus crucified.

 

Of course they are true. In this context.

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with:

YLT : For, if we have become planted together to the likeness of his death, so also we shall be of the rising again; Rom 6:5
For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. 2 Cor 4:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Rom 8:11

 

Your post really was not worth a response from me, mon ami. All we get from you are deflections and obfuscation.

Then who is He angry with? His anger, His wrath was poured out on His Son. Let that settle in your theology.

He is a 'consuming fire' taking vengence upon all the wicked. Look at the day of Judgment. God loves everybody, says you guys, and then casts those He loves into everlasting torment. Now, that is love exemplified.

Sin is either punished in the sinner or Sinbearer. His wrath is meted out on one or the other. If God is not angry with the wicked, then who is He angry with?

Start a thread about that verse and quit harping on about it. Quit deflecting.

We view God, One who hates, abhors sin. He hated, abhorred it so much, He, in His holiness, killed His own Son. God is love, yes. But His love is centered on Christ, you know, the One He killed on the cross?

Without the Spirit, none will, none can truly hear Him, mon ami. None will reverence Him.

Let us go to another passage that deals with God's anger, seeing Psalms is something not worthy of debating due to prayer or poetical language.


David sang to the Lord the words of this song when the Lord delivered him from the hand of all his enemies and from the hand of Saul. He said: “The Lord is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn of my salvation. He is my stronghold, my refuge and my savior—from violent people you save me. “I called to the Lord, who is worthy of praise, and have been saved from my enemies. The waves of death swirled about me; the torrents of destruction overwhelmed me.The cords of the grave coiled around me; the snares of death confronted me. “In my distress I called to the Lord; I called out to my God. From his temple he heard my voice; my cry came to his ears. The earth trembled and quaked, the foundations of the heavens shook; they trembled because he was angry. Smoke rose from his nostrils; consuming fire came from his mouth, burning coals blazed out of it. He parted the heavens and came down; dark clouds were under his feet. He mounted the cherubim and flew; he soared on the wings of the wind. He made darkness his canopy around him—the dark rain clouds of the sky. Out of the brightness of his presence bolts of lightning blazed forth.The Lord thundered from heaven; the voice of the Most High resounded. He shot his arrows and scattered the enemy, with great bolts of lightning he routed them. The valleys of the sea were exposed and the foundations of the earth laid bare at the rebuke of the Lord, at the blast of breath from his nostrils.[2 Sam. 22:1-16]

This is the Spirit's way of conveying God's wrath as He poured it out upon David's enemies. But God is not angry with the wicked? Really?

All are required, all are commanded to reverence Him. None are without an excuse.

No, it is your rubbishness in your theology that you state God is not angry with sinners every day. Is God angry with Satan somedays and other days they play 'pattycake'?

 

Yes, it does. As long as the sinner remains in unbelief.

Yes. That judgment flows from His hatred for both the sin and the sinner.

His wrath does not flow from His love.

If it did, language would have no meaning.

If wrath could be construed as love, then Hell might as well be construed as yet another example of His intense love.

Yes. I was an enemy of the Gospel who bore His holy wrath.

But regarding the election I was one day, unbeknownst to me, to be accepted in the beloved, as a recipient of His mercy and compassion.

 

This is the kind of theology preached by the LBGT, same - sex marriage crowd.

What is missing from this equation is 'God is holy.'

And His holiness will not allow sin to go unpunished.

Yes, God is love.

He loves holiness and righteousness and justice.

This is why He will judge the reprobate in holiness, righteousness and justice when He casts them all into the Lake of Fire.

 

Yes, the number and identity of the Elect has been determined according to the eternal purpose of God in Christ.

And yes, the number and identity of the Reprobate has been determined according to the eternal purpose of God outside of Christ.

Is not inconceivable that God had purposes in mind before He set His creation in motion?

Is it not inconceivable that God's purposes always come to pass?

And is it not inconceivable that God is not obligated to give man what he does not deserve: saving grace?

And is it not inconceivable that man willingly rejects Christ, the truth of Christ and the Gospel without any divine prompting by God?

Do not the works of Adam and the nation of Israel prove that without the powerful intervention of God's grace, all men are doomed?

 

Invalid comment without scripture support!

 

This is not worthy of an answer.

 

Protestant hit the nail on the head. It is not worthy of an answer because you have not one that is worthy of a biblical refutation.


These images are as deplorable as they come, yet these people say God loves everyone, including those who abuse their bodies by being with the same-sex.
[edited due to offensiveness]

 

......double post.......

 

I answered directly point by point. And now you accuse me of deflecting, etc.
Perhaps you were just unable to refute my post. That is more likely the case.

Psalm 7:11 does not say that God is angry with anyone!
Only the KJV says that.
(ASV) God is a righteous judge, Yea, a God that hath indignation every day.

(Darby) God is a righteous judge, and a *God who is indignant all the day.

(ESV) God is a righteous judge, and a God who feels indignation every day.

(Geneva) God iudgeth the righteous, and him that contemneth God euery day.

(YLT) God is a righteous judge, And He is not angry at all times.
--It is quite evident that the KJV is wrong in its translation in this case.

Look carefully at your own Bible:
(KJV) God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.
--The words "with the wicked" are in italics indicating they are not in the Hebrew text. They are supplied by the translators to make sense to you, the reader. They are not there. That is why all these other translations do not include them. They are not in the text. You cannot say from this verse that God is angry with the wicked every day, for "with the wicked" is not even found in this verse.
That is why I suggested to you: Do Some More Study On This Verse!

How do you come to this conclusion? I supplied for you the context. Again do some more study.
If you truly believe what you just posted it is a denial of eternal security, and a denial of the P in TULIP.
Hebrews 12:28,29 is addressed to those in Christ, Christians, not unbelievers. How are Christians in danger of everlasting torment unless you believe they can lose their salvation? It is not speaking of vengeance of upon all the wicked. It is a metaphor used for Christians. Do some study here. The writer uses the first person plural "we". Do you believe the writers of the NT are unsaved??

When the High Priest sent the goat out on the Day of Atonement was he angry? Was it an act of anger? No. Neither is God an angry God. The Bible does not say that. If you need to go to a different translation, then please do. But the Word of God does not picture God as an angry God. He doesn't lose his cool.
As the High Priest without emotion, lay his hands on that goat, and sent it out into the wilderness, so God, without being angry, will execute wrath/judgment/justice upon those that have not believed on the name of His only begotten Son. He does not have to be an "angry God" to do so. And this is what you depict.

It is not a deflection. I make a point about people taking Scripture out of context. You have done it again by trying to apply Heb.12:29 to unbelievers when it says nothing of the kind. It has as much relevance to the unsaved and their salvation as does 1Chron.26:18. None. Good verse eh?

So you view God as Calvin did, as depicted in His Institutes. I am not impressed. I view Him as the Bible depicts Him. He is not an angry God.
He is a God of love, mercy, compassion, holy, just and righteous.
He loved mankind so much that he came from the glories of heaven and lived and died and rose again that he might redeem man from his sin.

This is where you are wrong. This is taking the Calvinistic principle of Total Inability too far. The Bible does not teach this. It does teach the principle of the depravity of man, that all men are sinners. But that doesn't mean that all men cannot respond to God.
When God commanded all men to:
Repent.
Seek the Lord.
Believe on His Name.
Call upon Him, etc.

God did not put any caveats to those commands. He didn't tell them to wait for the Spirit first. They are universal commands to be obeyed whether or not the Spirit had opened their hearts. This is what the Calvinist has wrong. Cornelius was not regenerated nor could he have been until he heard the gospel from Peter. And yet he was able to call upon the Lord to ask someone to show him the way.

Rahab the harlot no doubt was the same way. She heard of the miracles of Jehovah, that God was doing through Moses in Egypt. She heard of the other defeated kings in the travels of Israel. When she believed, called upon the name of Jehovah, we are not told. It is not the Spirit that "opened her heart," it is her, putting her faith in Jehovah, according to the revelation of God that was revealed unto her.

Depends on the context. Remember that it is poetical language. Poetical language often has difficulties of interpretation due to the nature of the literature--often figurative.

The entire piece is very poetic. He uses very figurative language that describes his glory as much as his judgment.
It is Psalm 18:1-50.
It describes David and his wars with the Philistines.
It is also a Messianic Psalm depicting Christ warring with the hosts of hell.

It contains much imagery and figurative language.

No, not there. You have it wrong.

It doesn't matter if Satan and his demons are commanded to reverence him. That is not the point. That is not what the verse says. The verse is directed only to believers. Your interpretation is simple eisegesis. With that method you can make the Bible say anything you want to make it.

For example:
Zechariah 5:1 Then I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a flying roll.
--My interpretation--Zechariah saw a spaceship flying through the air. :D
But you are doing the same type of thing.

It doesn't say God is angry. However it does teach that God is just; he metes out his justice; his judgement, and will do so on the ungodly and their sinfulness. They will be judged. I don't believe you have the correct interpretation of these verses, and are not taking the context into consideration.

 

Yes, God loves them, as God loved Matthew or Levi, the most despised man of his day--a publican or tax collector. There wasn't a social class that he didn't love.
He loved the man in 1Cor.5:1-5--a man committing incest, and yet he was saved. Christ died for him too.

 

God hates sin. God also hates those who commit sin. The only reason His wrath was not poured out on us was because He poured it out on His Son, you know, the One He loves.


Now, please answer this.

Was God angry at Jesus when He killed Him on the cross? Was His wrath poured out on His Son on the cross? If yes, then is He not angry?

 

Yes God hates sin. It is a false conclusion to draw that he hates those that commit sin.
God poured out his wrath upon his Son, true.
Was God angry? No. God was not angry.
Was his wrath poured out? His wrath was appeased with the death of his son.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

Hebrews 12:29 is a reference from Deut. 4:24. Now, I will give you some verses from Deut. 4 to show you what 'consuming fire' means...

You saw with your own eyes what the Lord did at Baal Peor. The Lord your God destroyed from among you everyone who followed the Baal of Peor.[Deut. 4:3] Now the Hebrew word for 'destroyed' means annihilate, exterminate, devastate, destroy. Can God do this while not in anger?

The Lord was angry with me because of you, and he solemnly swore that I would not cross the Jordan and enter the good land the Lord your God is giving you as your inheritance. I will die in this land; I will not cross the Jordan; but you are about to cross over and take possession of that good land. [vss. 21,22]

Here is an example of sin not going unpunished. God commanded Moses to guide His people, and held him personally responsible for their wrongdoings. Moses did not do what they did(yes he smote the rock twice), yet God held him accountable for their sins. Sound famaliar? Christ was held responsible for His sheep's sin. He suffered, paid for their sins in death.

Be careful not to forget the covenant of the Lord your God that he made with you; do not make for yourselves an idol in the form of anything the Lord your God has forbidden. For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.[vss. 23,24]

This is the context of what is meant by the Hebrew writer's meaning of God being a 'consuming fire'. He was angry at the Jews for having other gods, other idols they worshipped, and not Him. That was why the Hebrew writer also wrote So I declared on oath in my anger, ‘They shall never enter my rest.’[Heb. 3:11] These Jews were in unbelief, worshipping other idols and God, in His anger, swore 'They shall never enter my rest(sabbath)'.

Sinners are serving sin and self, not worshipping God. Unless God has mercy, His wrath is never rescended, going all the way to Him casting them into the lake of fire.

 

He killed someone and was not angry? That is one schizophrenic God you are displaying on here. He killed someone, yet was not angry.

Propitiation in the greek meant 'an appeasing, an propitiation'. Christ's atoning sacrifice appeased God's wrath, God's anger. Appease means pacify or placate (someone) by acceding to their demands, relieve or satisfy (a demand or a feeling). Now let us see what pacify means quell the anger, agitation, or excitement of bring peace to (a country or warring factions), especially by the use or threatened use of military force. And now the meaning of placate make (someone) less angry or hostile. If Christ had never came in the flesh, God's anger, God's wrath would be poured out on everybody who ever lived. But praise God, He sent Jesus to bear my sins, that God's wrath, God's vengence, God's wrath was poured out on His Son.