Or, unfortunately you completely misinterpret the point Paul is making.
God is waiting for their evil to reach a perfect pitch? According to your interpretation of this passage it is not God waiting for them but rather God forming them to do evil.
The Eternal Purpose of God in Christ
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Protestant, Jul 31, 2015.
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
DHK
if you knew these basics you would not error as much....now we must go to part two of this refutation:thumbsup: -
We use the English language. One cannot change the meaning of words.
The point is that words have meaning. We don't change the meaning willy nilly to fit our own convenient pre-conceived ideology.
Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
--On this scripture alone IG is wrong.
You are right on one thing. I have not learned from the confession of faith concerning anything, nor do I intend to. My authority is the Word of God not confessions. I wouldn't be bothered by them.
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
DHK;
Now because you want to attack cals you twist it.:laugh:
God ordained all that came to pass during ww2. Every aspect....the wicked acts of wicked men, the deaths, the day of those deaths...not one thing happened apart from what was ordained to come to pass.
Was the flood that destroyed the world of the ungodly a picnic?
how about this....a surprise party?
15 Samuel also said unto Saul, The Lord sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the Lord.
2 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
The God of Jn3:16 is also the God giving these commands.
Protestant...is that what you believe?
SG....is that what you believe?
Rippon...is that what you believe?
AA. is that what you believe?
Is there any Cal who believes this???? If not why is DHK allowed to post such lies? DHK...can you post where any Cal said this or not?
No one cares what you "think" is inferred....we want you to post and actual quote where any of us said anything like this.....
This is why you are opposed.
people make choices but the will is not free....
God offers man the gift of salvation, the gift of eternal life, which is always available to all and every one to freely accept.
It is Christ that has drawn all men to himself.
It is Christ that said wide is the road that leads to destruction...and narrow is the path that leads to life but few there are that enter into it. That path must be chosen. One must enter by his own volition. God doesn't force people down the right road.
Grace and mercy have been provided.
Grace and mercy need to be accepted by faith
Somewhere along the line you have heard of sola fide, haven't you?
Scripture taken out of context. If that were true, then in Acts 2, 3,000 people would not have been saved. You contradict yourself.
More scripture taken out of context. Many came to Jesus admitting they were sick: they came as blind, lepers, lame, the palsy, etc. Admitting their illnesses and desiring to be healed, they were all healed "according to THEIR faith."
Given the above evidence would you infer that Christ was a false god since many were healed and granted forgiveness through him. I hope not.
No, he chose whosoever would believe on him." That is mercy, grace, and justice.
this shows you remain unteachable and have a hatred for the things most surely believed among us -
SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Until you realize He has never truly tried(God never tries, He either does something or He does not) to save everyone. The Philistines were left out of Aaron's sin sacrifice for Israel, as they(Philistines) were too busy worshipping Dagon.
And please reread "For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”[Lu. 19:10] He came to seek and TO SAVE. He did not say He would try to save them, monsieur. The the angel of the Lord declared to Joseph "She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”[Matt. 1:21] Now, if His people die lost, then He did not save them from their sins, seeing they died in them. If He came to seek and save the lost and many of the lost died lost, He is a mighty poor Seeker and Saver, mon ami.
You, and many others, have done exactly what Bro. Paul Washer stated in his sermon "Repent and Believe", and have taken the supernatural out of salvation, by denying the supernatural gift of God-given faith. -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
DHK
These reprobates did NOT RECEIVE irresitable grace as they were reprobates.....reprobates ALWAYS RESIST... that is why they go to hell...
lets try this again.....
DHK...write on a whiteboard 100x
it means in the case of the elect....IT IS NOT ULTIMATELY RESISTED.... but rather it is effectual in every case
it means in the case of the elect....IT IS NOT ULTIMATELY RESISTED.... but rather it is effectual in every case
it means in the case of the elect....IT IS NOT ULTIMATELY RESISTED.... but rather it is effectual in every case
it means in the case of the elect....IT IS NOT ULTIMATELY RESISTED.... but rather it is effectual in every case
acts 7:51...non elect.... -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
it means in the case of the elect....IT IS NOT ULTIMATELY RESISTED.... but rather it is effectual in every case
I am simply putting it in a way that is more simple and easier to understand than your many confessions.Click to expand...
You are right on one thing. I have not learned from the confession of faith concerning anything, nor do I intend to.Click to expand...
We can see by these bizarre posts...
My authority is the Word of God not confessions. I wouldn't be bothered by them.Click to expand...
Don't waste your time.Click to expand... -
steaver said: ↑Or, unfortunately you completely misinterpret the point Paul is making.
God is waiting for their evil to reach a perfect pitch? According to your interpretation of this passage it is not God waiting for them but rather God forming them to do evil.Click to expand...
And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full. (Gen. 15:13-16)
The sins of the wicked are under the dominion of the Lord God.
Satan could only go so far with Job.
God orders and directs all things to fulfill His holy purposes -- purposes which do not necessarily become readily apparent to us on earth or in this lifetime.
Rather than bring God before your Judgment Seat, it would be wiser to believe all that is written in His Holy Writ. -
SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Iconoclast, what I find mindboggling is he hates the 1689 LBCF, but quotes a heretic such a John Walvoord, formerly of DTS.
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steaver said: ↑Did the Supreme Potter make the evil vessels, or did they freely and willingly make themselves evil?Click to expand...
From this same fallen lump God has elected some to be recipients of His mercy.
The rest He chooses to keep in their fallen state.
How does God choose who is elect and who is reprobate?
God only knows. These are the secret things of God.
Why does He not choose all?
Because it pleases Him to elect the remnant.
Why?
God only knows.
Does it please God to judge sinners?
Yes.
Is that wrong?
Is justice wrong? Of course not. Justice is good. -
SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? As he says in Hosea: “I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people; and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one," and, “In the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’”Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved. For the Lord will carry out his sentence on earth with speed and finality.” It is just as Isaiah said previously: “Unless the Lord Almighty had left us descendants, we would have become like Sodom, we would have been like Gomorrah.” What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. As it is written: “See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[Rom. 9:21:33]
All of this passage is dealing with the elect and non-elect, which both came from the same lump of clay, Adam. God is calling His sheep out from amongst the goats via the gospel. Paul asked the question What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? He then asks another question What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? In a sense, he answered his first question with the second question. God is patient with the objects of His wrath to make sure His objects of His mercy are saved. -
SovereignGrace said: ↑In a sense, he answered his first question with the second question. God is patient with the objects of His wrath to make sure His objects of His mercy are saved.Click to expand...
His ways are higher than our ways..........too high for us mortals to grasp. -
Protestant said: ↑The lump of clay is the lump in Adam who sinned willingly, thereby sentencing all his progeny to death.
From this same fallen lump God has elected some to be recipients of His mercy.
The rest He chooses to keep in their fallen state.
How does God choose who is elect and who is reprobate?
God only knows. These are the secret things of God.
Why does He not choose all?
Because it pleases Him to elect the remnant.
Why?
God only knows.
Does it please God to judge sinners?
Yes.
Is that wrong?
Is justice wrong? Of course not. Justice is good.Click to expand...
As the Supreme Potter it pleases Him to make vessels of mercy who will glorify His grace.
Likewise it pleases the Supreme Potter (not Puppeteer) to also make vessels of wrath who will glorify His justice.
You say you don’t believe God created most men in order that they may be righteously judged for the sins which they willingly committed?
The Apostle Paul replies:
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? (Romans 9:20-21)Click to expand... -
SovereignGrace said: ↑The point I am making is God does no injustice in withholding something from those who do not deserve, or even desire, it. You keep saying God is fair, as if He should do as you, and even I think, He should. If He had decided to not save one sinner, He is still just, fair, and good. If He saved everyone, He is still just, fair, and good. If He had decided to only save the Jews and left the Gentiles out, He is still just, fair, and good.Click to expand...
Until you realize He has never truly tried(God never tries, He either does something or He does not) to save everyone. The Philistines were left out of Aaron's sin sacrifice for Israel, as they(Philistines) were too busy worshipping Dagon.Click to expand...
God provided a way for all to be saved. His blood was sufficient for all to be saved. He is the propitiation for the sins of the world. He is the Lamb of God slain for the sins of the world. He is not willing that any should perish. His will is that all should come to repentance. His will is that all should be saved.
--These are direct statements of scripture which cannot be swept under the rug, and yet the Calvinist continues to do so.
God has declared his will. The reason all men do not get saved is because they don't want to get saved. It is because of the hardness of their heart, the sinfulness of their own heart, the rebelliousness of their own heart--they say no to the gift of God which is eternal life. Instead of receiving Christ they reject him.
Irresistible Grace is a false doctrine. God does not force a person to be saved. He offers salvation to them. He does not "try" to save anyone. He offers salvation. It is up to mankind either to receive Christ or reject Christ. In the sovereignty of God, God has given man that choice, for God made man after his own image, and not the image of a puppet or robot.
And please reread "For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”[Lu. 19:10] He came to seek and TO SAVE. He did not say He would try to save them, monsieur.Click to expand...
The the angel of the Lord declared to Joseph "She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”[Matt. 1:21] Now, if His people die lost, then He did not save them from their sins, seeing they died in them. If He came to seek and save the lost and many of the lost died lost, He is a mighty poor Seeker and Saver, mon ami.Click to expand...
1. "His people," were the Jews, the people of Mary and Joseph. He was speaking to them and not you.
2. "His people," were those that believe, as he has said over and over again. The elect are those that believe. Those are the only two choices that make sense.
You, and many others, have done exactly what Bro. Paul Washer stated in his sermon "Repent and Believe", and have taken the supernatural out of salvation, by denying the supernatural gift of God-given faith.Click to expand...
But one cannot ignore obedience to God's command to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ," repeated hundreds of times over in the NT. Why deny sola fide. Why deny the invitation to "come unto him." Do you really think that just because one "believes on the Lord Jesus Christ," there is nothing supernatural that happens.
Rather when it is believed that regeneration produces faith, then Christianity becomes mysterious and mystical. -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
DHK
He came to seek and to save the lost (not the elect).Click to expand...
1]Jesus did not come to seek and save the elect?
2]The elect were not lost?
3] Someone other than the elect get saved?
4] In ezk 34 when God identifies the object of who he will come to seek and save...it was not His elect sheep?
You have such unique insights....I wonder why Paul said this?;
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory
Maybe he never got to read your posts:laugh:
The lost are the world; those that are in need of a Savior.Click to expand...
Those who freely receive his offer of salvation will be saved.Click to expand...
They are not more worthy but more willing.Click to expand... -
Iconoclast said: ↑wrong...you do not understand the term or how it is used...it does not mean that grace cannot be resisted...it means in the case of the elect....IT IS NOT ULTIMATELY RESISTED.... but rather it is effectual in every case.Click to expand...
Iconoclast said: ↑Never heard any Christian say any such thing....not onceClick to expand...
Iconoclast said: ↑while the violent do take it by force.....I never hear any Christians say this at all...this is almost incoherent.
You demonstrate you have no understanding of what we believe....let Protestant say what he believes...not you.
Did anyone say this? It is clear you have not properly learned from the confession of faith concerning God's decree....you mix and mash the words interchangeably that are each different.....
if you knew these basics you would not error as much....now we must go to part two of this refutation:thumbsup:Click to expand... -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
DHK
Have you ever been involved in sports--been a referee for a children's game of any sort? Would you consider favoring some children over others? Being fair to some and not fair to others? The quality of "fairness" is an attribute of God that he instills within us: "our conscience also bearing us witness."Click to expand...
God provided a way for all to be saved. His blood was sufficient for all to be saved. He is the propitiation for the sins of the world. He is the Lamb of God slain for the sins of the world. He is not willing that any should perish. His will is that all should come to repentance. His will is that all should be saved.
--These are direct statements of scripture which cannot be swept under the rug, and yet the Calvinist continues to do so.Click to expand...
He is not willing that any should perish....is not found in the bible no matter how many times you post it.
God has declared his will. The reason all men do not get saved is because they don't want to get savedClick to expand...
:laugh: they are not a blank slate....they love sin is why they are not saved.
It is because of the hardness of their heart, the sinfulness of their own heart, the rebelliousness of their own heart--they say no to the gift of God which is eternal life. Instead of receiving Christ they reject him.Click to expand...
Irresistible Grace is a false doctrineClick to expand...
Not to those of us who know it firsthand.
God does not force a person to be saved.Click to expand...
He offers salvation to them. He does not "try" to save anyone. He offers salvation.Click to expand...
It is up to mankindClick to expand...
either to receive Christ or reject Christ. In the sovereignty of God, God has given man that choice, for God made man after his own image, and not the image of a puppet or robot.Click to expand...
3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth
I have never used this word "try." Why do you use it now. God has no need of "trying" to do anything. Hilarious!Click to expand...
You claim he wants to save all men, etc...but all are not saved....as if...He tried...He did all he could do, but unless man add's to it , Man will not be saved.
We teach he actually accomplishes and saves all he intended to.
There are two ways you can interpret that verse.
1. "His people," were the Jews, the people of Mary and Joseph. He was speaking to them and not you.
2. "His people," were those that believe, as he has said over and over again. The elect are those that believe. Those are the only two choices that make sense.Click to expand...
acts 13:48
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Salvation is of the Lord. Of course it is supernatural.Click to expand...
But one cannot ignore obedience to God's command to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ," repeated hundreds of times over in the NT. Why deny sola fide. Why deny the invitation to "come unto him." Do you really think that just because one "believes on the Lord Jesus Christ," there is nothing supernatural that happens.Click to expand...
Rather when it is believed that regeneration produces faith, then Christianity becomes mysterious and mystical.Click to expand...
You say those words now, but you do not mean it the same as we do. You mock and call it mystical faith that we have -
SovereignGrace said: ↑Uhhhhh hem!!! PreachTony?
Pg. 18 post #175.Click to expand...
SovereignGrace said: ↑Say I have $10,000,000 dollars, it is mine, and mine alone. Now, do I have a right to keep it to myself or give it money to people who I deem needy of it? By your standards, I must offer money to everybody I come into contact with or I am being unjust, not giving some to some people and giving money to others. Now, I am sure you are going to throw out that I would be unjust to give it to one asking me for some cash and not to some who are also asking for some cash.Click to expand...
SovereignGrace said: ↑Here is the thing, though...no one is asking God for His saving grace in the sinful, fallen state. They want nothing to do with Him, they run from Him. I witness to many people who do not realize they are spiritually broke. They realize they do not “Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, saying, ‘This person began to build and wasn’t able to finish.’[Luke 14:28-30]Click to expand...
Acts 17:24-28 said:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.Click to expand...
SovereignGrace said: ↑Jesus backed up what I just posted when He said “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’Matt. 20:13-15]Click to expand...
SovereignGrace said: ↑You guys act like God is entitled to make an offer to everybody, even those who never knew He existed. God did not have to make a covenant with His Son, but He chose to. He then chose a multitude of sinners(none could have been saved and He would still be just, mon ami), but you think we are making Him unfair by stating He does not offer everybody a chance at the table.Click to expand...
SovereignGrace said: ↑If He saved 'goose-egg', would He still be just, PreachTony?Click to expand... -
Iconoclast said: ↑No...we understand these verses...and
He is not willing that any should perish....is not found in the bible no matter how many times you post it.Click to expand...
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