I am reading and studying a book by Alfred Edersheim titled The Life and times of Jesus The Messiah complete and unabridged in one volume... If any of you have this the quote is taken from page 590... The teachers of Israel knew not, nor believed in the total corruption of man-Jew as well as Gentile-and therefore, felt not the need of a Savior. They could not understand it, how 'Except a man'-at least a Jew-were 'born again; and, 'from above; he could not enter, nor even see, the Kingdom of God. They understood not their own Bible: The story of the Fall-not Moses and the Prophets; and how could they understand Christ? They believed not them, and how could they believe him? And yet from this point of view, but only from this, does all seem clear: The Incarnation, the History of the Temptation and Victory in the Wilderness, and even the Cross. Only he who has in some measure, himself felt the agony of the first garden, can understand that of the second garden. Had they understood, by that personal experience which we all must have of it, the Proto-Evangel of the great contest, and of the great conquest by suffering, they would have followed its lines in their final goal in the Christ as the fulfillment of all. And so, here also, were the words of Christ true, that it needed heavenly teaching, and kinship to the Divine, to understand His Doctrine... As always your thoughts and comments are greatly appreciated... Brother Glen
The Fall Of Man?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by tyndale1946, Mar 31, 2016.
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tyndale1946 Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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My thoughts... this book is considered outdated and anachronistic. I would recommend reading something else of more relevance. Try NT Wright's New Testament and the People of God.
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Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Alfred Edersheim was a converted Jew who became a Presbyterian minister. He has some very helpful insights on Jewish beliefs and customs and is very much worth reading even though his language tends to be a bit flowery. He also wrote a book on the Old Testament which can be very helpful in understanding the Pentateuch especially.
In the quotation, what I think he's saying is that only those who are conscious of their own sinful hearts can appreciate their need of a Saviour and truly understand the necessity for our Lord's humiliation and death. -
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Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Except the author is wrong. The issue is not that the Jews did not believe in their own corruption. They believed their salvation was tied up in being an descendant of Abraham. -
Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Except the author is wrong. The issue is not that the Jews did not believe in their own corruption. They believed their salvation was tied up in being an descendant of Abraham. -
tyndale1946 Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Not sure the purpose of this thread? It seems the views of a fallen man are being cited to support the mistaken doctrine of Total Spiritual Inability, but without ever making that point.
We are all fallen, for by the disobedience of the one (Adam) the many were made sinners. But being in that condition we can still receive the revelation of God with joy. -
tyndale1946 Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Wright. You NPP folks really like him don't you?
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This is not a knee jerk reaction either. This was just offering some perspective. It was not an attack to disparage "a great man", although you seem to feel it was. Thus you come at me with "your man Wright". Not all that altruistic of you.
And I really like Wright, but that is because he is an awesome scholar of the NT! His works on Jesus and the gospels are second to none. Read the first 3 volumes of his Christian Origins series. You'll see what I'm saying. Put aside his views on justification, and you can read great scholarship.
And I'm not a NPP proponent but take a middle view. However, I am currently preaching through Galatians right now, and I bet you would find no objections with what I have been preaching. -
Consider 4 Ezra, a Jewish apocryphal writing from the late first century:
21] For the first Adam, burdened with an evil heart, transgressed and was overcome, as were also all who were descended from him.
[22] Thus the disease became permanent; the law was in the people's heart along with the evil root, but what was good departed, and the evil remained.
[23] So the times passed and the years were completed, and thou didst raise up for thyself a servant, named David.
[24] And thou didst command him to build a city for thy name, and in it to offer thee oblations from what is thine.
[25] This was done for many years; but the inhabitants of the city transgressed,
[26] in everything doing as Adam and all his descendants had done, for they also had the evil heart.
[27] So thou didst deliver the city into the hands of thy enemies.
And:
[48(118)] O Adam, what have you done? For though it was you who sinned, the fall was not yours alone, but ours also who are your descendants.
[49(119)] For what good is it to us, if an eternal age has been promised to us, but we have done deeds that bring death?
[50(120)] And what good is it that an everlasting hope has been promised to us, but we have miserably failed?
[51(121)] Or that safe and healthful habitations have been reserved for us, but we have lived wickedly?
[52(122)] Or that the glory of the Most High will defend those who have led a pure life, but we have walked in the most wicked ways?
[53(123)] Or that a paradise shall be revealed, whose fruit remains unspoiled and in which are abundance and healing, but we shall not enter it,
[54(124)] because we have lived in unseemly places?
[55(125)] Or that the faces of those who practiced self-control shall shine more than the stars, but our faces shall be blacker than darkness?
[56(126)] For while we lived and committed iniquity we did not consider what we should suffer after death."
[57(127)]
He answered and said, "This is the meaning of the contest which every man who is born on earth shall wage. -
I heartily recommend it for all to read. It's a very valuable resource to have in your library. -
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Here is something more "up to date":
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. Romans 10:1-3 -
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Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election [of Jews] hath obtained it [Rom 11:5: the election of grace, (ie: Paul's Gospel)] and the rest [of Israel] were blinded
Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles [+ "the elect" Jews under Paul's Gospel of Grace]
Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
...if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
blindness in part [some Jews are presently saved] is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in [the Dispensation of Paul's Gospel of GRACE is finished]
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer [Jesus], and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob (ie: Israel).
their sins.
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sin
God is able to graft them in again! -
I think you are taking this as a personal attack. This is not a personal affront to Edersheim. It is just clarifying what the current academic community is saying.
Why should you believe me? Well I have the credentials to back it up. I have read much on this, both primary and secondary literature. And since the entire premise of the book is anachronistic, there isn't just one example I can turn to. And my proof is that I am simply agreeing with the guys who know better.
But here's one just skimming through. (I have a 2 volume edition, btw). In volume 1 ch. VI (p. 80 for me), Edersheim says of the book of Jubilees that it was written during the time of Jesus and that it was "Rabbinic in its cast rather than Apocalyptic." However, current research holds to Jubilees being written 100+ years before Jesus. But the main issue is what I have been raising all along. Rabbinical Judaism is post 70CE/post temple Judaism! It did not exist before the destruction of the temple. To use it as a way of thinking for pre 70 Judaism will not work b/c Judaism was not so unified, not in the slightest. And all we know about Rabbinical Judaism comes from post70 documents!!! The hard part is to figure out what, if any, of the traditions before the temple's destruction were carried over. But to assert that pre 70 and post 70 Judaism looked the same is flat wrong. -
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