So any type of God who is capable of working all things together to accomplish his purpose is fatalism in your book? - Rom. 8:28
Hence, your type of God is unable to have a divine purpose that is inclusive of other creatures because free will loses all freedom if it can be directed or determined by any design or purpose of another even it that "another" is God?
The Freewill Invitation system is a False Gospel
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by savedbymercy, Apr 6, 2012.
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Iconoclast said: ↑savedbymercy said: ↑How False preachers pervert the scriptures is done most frequently in what is called the invitations to Salvation to all without exception. Some of the most common, we will show that these invites are actually efficacious calls of Grace, to most unworthy Elect sinners, and not to the spiritually dead in trespasses and sins !Click to expand...
There is nothing wrong with an invitation. Peter gave one in Acts 2. I have been in many Calvinistic churches during my travels and many of them have given invitations. There is an invitation given by God himself in Revelation 22.
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.Click to expand... -
So any type of God who is capable of working all things together to accomplish his purpose is fatalism in your book? - Rom. 8:28
Hence, your type of God is unable to have a divine purpose that is inclusive of other creatures because free will loses all freedom if it can be directed or determined by any design or purpose of another even it that "another" is God?Click to expand...
But concerning Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people." Romans 10:21. God held his hands out. The people were obstinate to God holding his hands out. Isaiah 65:2 All day long I have held out my hands to an obstinate people, who walk in ways not good, pursuing their own imaginations--
Does it make sense that God would hold out His hands to people if He made it impossible for them to come to Him? Pagans CHOOSE to do that in which they do. 1 Peter 4:3 For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do--living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry.
God held out His hands to disobedient and obstinate people. They rejected God. It is their sin, their sin of rejecting God. They rejected God on their own and will be judged and punished for that. When God judges them and punishes them, it will be the sin of rejecting God. If God made them without the capability to believe, then they would be innocent.
Many people say God created all people with the inability to choose Him, yet in these next scriptures, it shows that God wants the wicked to turn from their ways. Why would God plead with them to turn from their ways if they cannot choose to?
"But as for you who forsake the LORD and forget my holy mountain, who spread a table for Fortune and fill bowls of mixed wine for Destiny, I will destine you for the sword, and you will all bend down for the slaughter; for I called but you did not answer, I spoke but you did not listen. You did evil in my sight and chose what displeases me." Isaiah 65:11-12.
Here God says about being forsaken and His holy mountain being forgot. Also, this passage tells us that God called the people, and the people did not answer; He spoke but the people did not listen. We also see that they CHOSE what displeases God. God’s Word is what God says. God says they "chose" what displeases Him. Who is anyone to say now that they have no choice?
Ezekiel 18:23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
Ezekiel 18:32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!
Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?'
John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Romans 11:14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.
How could Paul ever think that he could save some by arousing them to envy if God saves us by the Holy Spirit enabling us to believe?
God wants all to come to Him, but many love darkness instead of the light, see John 3:19. -
Amen Moriah. An excellent response to Biblicist's remarks and a sound presentation of truth. :thumbs:
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite SupporterDHK said: ↑Iconoclast said: ↑You are off here Icono.
There is nothing wrong with an invitation. Peter gave one in Acts 2. I have been in many Calvinistic churches during my travels and many of them have given invitations. There is an invitation given by God himself in Revelation 22.
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.Click to expand...
because SBM...has gone a few steps over the line does not open the floodgates to all manner of man centered error.
I am thankful that God is sovereign and he saves despite our errors anyhow.Click to expand... -
DHK said: ↑Iconoclast said: ↑You are off here Icono.
There is nothing wrong with an invitation. Peter gave one in Acts 2. I have been in many Calvinistic churches during my travels and many of them have given invitations. There is an invitation given by God himself in Revelation 22.
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.Click to expand...
And yes DHK, Icon is totally wrong, because Grace is indeed given to all that will recieve it.
JohnClick to expand... -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporterseekingthetruth said: ↑DHK said: ↑I think what Icon means is that he objects to invitations because they imply that Grace is offered to all, not just the elect. In other words it's wrong to invite the non-elect to recieve salvation because God will not grant it to them.
And yes DHK, Icon is totally wrong, because Grace is indeed given to all that will recieve it.
JohnClick to expand...
If you want to know what Icon means....ask Icon:thumbsup:
read post 222...tell me what you see as wrong...then we can talk.:wavey:
I think what Icon means is that he objects to invitations because they imply that Grace is offered to all, not just the elect. In other words it's wrong to invite the non-elect to recieve salvation because God will not grant it to them.Click to expand...Click to expand... -
icon
The command to believe goes to all men everywhereClick to expand...
.....jn3:16...all men, all kinds of men. We preach and teach to all men.Click to expand...
Peter gave a command.....Repent and believe is not an option but a command.Click to expand...
Besides, if you believe that a person gets saved by obeying a command, you are perverting the Gospel of Grace and promote salvation by works ! -
Iconoclast said: ↑seekingthetruth said: ↑I think you did not read post #222:wavey: i will accept your apology after you read it...then you may retract your false statement.
If you want to know what Icon means....ask Icon:thumbsup:
read post 222...tell me what you see as wrong...then we can talk.:wavey:
No one knows who are elect...so we preach to all men.....I know you desire to oppose the truth of calvinism....but this is just suggesting random thoughts ...that i never posted.....again see post 222Click to expand...
let's get past the preaching part, and concentrate on the OP, which is the invitation. And if you will read what you wrote in post 222 you will see that you have more or less stated that a call to ALL to repent is wrong because ALL cannot repent.
And I dont believe that. It is not what the Bible teaches.
Now, are invitations misused? Yes. Is the "sinner's paryer" as a magical spell wrong? Yes. But a sincere invitation for "whosoever will" to repent and be saved is Biblical.
JohnClick to expand... -
Moriah said: ↑God draws us with lovingkindness (Jeremiah 31:3). God is kind to all, even the wicked and ungrateful, see Luke 6:35. The following are scriptures that show a loving God, and that God calls and some do not answer. They resist God.
But concerning Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people." Romans 10:21. God held his hands out. The people were obstinate to God holding his hands out. Isaiah 65:2 All day long I have held out my hands to an obstinate people, who walk in ways not good, pursuing their own imaginations--
Does it make sense that God would hold out His hands to people if He made it impossible for them to come to Him? Pagans CHOOSE to do that in which they do. 1 Peter 4:3 For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do--living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry.
God held out His hands to disobedient and obstinate people. They rejected God. It is their sin, their sin of rejecting God. They rejected God on their own and will be judged and punished for that. When God judges them and punishes them, it will be the sin of rejecting God. If God made them without the capability to believe, then they would be innocent.
Many people say God created all people with the inability to choose Him, yet in these next scriptures, it shows that God wants the wicked to turn from their ways. Why would God plead with them to turn from their ways if they cannot choose to?
"But as for you who forsake the LORD and forget my holy mountain, who spread a table for Fortune and fill bowls of mixed wine for Destiny, I will destine you for the sword, and you will all bend down for the slaughter; for I called but you did not answer, I spoke but you did not listen. You did evil in my sight and chose what displeases me." Isaiah 65:11-12.
Here God says about being forsaken and His holy mountain being forgot. Also, this passage tells us that God called the people, and the people did not answer; He spoke but the people did not listen. We also see that they CHOSE what displeases God. God’s Word is what God says. God says they "chose" what displeases Him. Who is anyone to say now that they have no choice?
Ezekiel 18:23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
Ezekiel 18:32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!
Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?'
John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Romans 11:14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.
How could Paul ever think that he could save some by arousing them to envy if God saves us by the Holy Spirit enabling us to believe?
God wants all to come to Him, but many love darkness instead of the light, see John 3:19.Click to expand... -
Iconoclast said: ↑DHK said: ↑Peter gave a command.....Repent and believe is not an option but a command. the preaching of the cross should be "the invitation"...there is nothing wrong with urging sinners to the cross....that being said ,the invitation system is a falsehood....
because SBM...has gone a few steps over the line does not open the floodgates to all manner of man centered error.
I am thankful that God is sovereign and he saves despite our errors anyhow.Click to expand...
That is the problem with Calvinism. They are so afraid they might do something they might get in the way of God. That is why Calvinistic churches, a good many of them at least, are shallow on the Great Commission. In spite of that fact, William Carey went to India anyway. There he invited sinners to come to Christ. He didn't wait around for God to do the saving. He actively sought them out.
You can sit on your rump all day long, but unless you are actively engage in carrying out the Great Commission when it comes Judgment Day, I believe many of those that are there--their blood will be on your hands. They won't be saved because the Calvinists didn't think it was their obligation to give the good news of salvation to them.Click to expand... -
DHK: You can sit on your rump all day long, but unless you are actively engage in carrying out the Great Commission when it comes Judgment Day, I believe many of those that are there--their blood will be on your hands. They won't be saved because the Calvinists didn't think it was their obligation to give the good news of salvation to them.
Click to expand...
HP: This sounds real good on the surface, but if faith is as you present it, and has nothing to do with an act of the will, man is not involved in faith. If man is not involved in faith, then all is predetermined by God, and those He grants faith to, i.e., the elect, will be saved regardless of any and all efforts by man. Again, if you despise necessitated fatalism, you are going to have to align your ideas of faith up in such a way as not to necessitate fatalism by your notions on faith. -
Heavenly Pilgrim said: ↑HP: This sounds real good on the surface, but if faith is as you present it, and has nothing to do with an act of the will, man is not involved in faith. If man is not involved in faith, then all is predetermined by God, and those He grants faith to, i.e., the elect, will be saved regardless of any and all efforts by man. Again, if you despise necessitated fatalism, you are going to have to align your ideas of faith up in such a way as not to necessitate fatalism by your notions on faith.Click to expand...
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DHK: I am not your resident Calvinist.Click to expand...
HP: Never said you were. I simply show forth when the ends of your arguments are in lock step with the necessitated fatalistic ends of Calvinism.
DHK: The Calvinist believes that faith is a gift given after regeneration. I certainly don't believe that. I believe man has faith inherent in him from his youth up. It is the ability to choose from right and wrong. The choice to receive or reject Christ.Click to expand...
HP: Notice carefully how the only choice of right or wrong according to you, involves only ONE CHOICE of either accepting or rejecting Christ which does not come to all, neither does it come to all from their youth up. If it does, you can stop your evangelism without any appreciable effect upon the outcome of one solitary soul.
DHK: If one receives Christ he receives a gift. But he has had that ability for a long time. God does not give spiritual gifts to unsaved people. The Calvinist may believe that, but I don't.Click to expand...
HP: You just said you do believe that, but you don't believe that as I read you. You say that one has a gift of the ability of faith from their youth to accept Christ, but then you say God does not give spiritual gifts to unsaved persons.:confused:
Who grants to man, apart from any action of their own whatsoever, the ability to exercise faith in Him? Why is that ability not precisely a gift, in the strictest terms you place upon what is and what is not a gift?
Is the gift of faith a spiritual gift from God or is it not, and in what sense is faith a spiritual gift and in what sense is it NOT a spiritual gift? -
DHK said: ↑I am not your resident Calvinist. I keep telling you that. The Calvinist believes that faith is a gift given after regeneration. I certainly don't believe that. I believe man has faith inherent in him from his youth up. It is the ability to choose from right and wrong. The choice to receive or reject Christ. If one receives Christ he receives a gift. But he has had that ability for a long time. God does not give spiritual gifts to unsaved people. The Calvinist may believe that, but I don't.Click to expand...
Furthermore, what do you mean the Calvinists may believe that, but you do not? Calvinists believe that they are saved before the creation of the world. -
Maybe DHK believes abilities to have faith is NOT a gift from God, and rather comes by works? Who knows?
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Heavenly Pilgrim said: ↑HP: Never said you were. I simply show forth when the ends of your arguments are in lock step with the necessitated fatalistic ends of Calvinism.Click to expand...
HP: Notice carefully how the only choice of right or wrong according to you, involves only ONE CHOICE of either accepting or rejecting Christ which does not come to all, neither does it come to all from their youth up. If it does, you can stop your evangelism without any appreciable effect upon the outcome of one solitary soul.Click to expand...
Every person comes to a crossroads in their life in which they must make a choice--a choice to believe or not to believe; to reject or to receive; that is their choice. They make it. The Calvinist says they are elect and the choice is not theirs to make. I don't agree with that. The gospel, of a necessity must be preached that all might hear and given that choice to believe or not to believe.
HP: You just said you do believe that, but you don't believe that as I read you. You say that one has a gift of the ability of faith from their youth to accept Christ, but then you say God does not give spiritual gifts to unsaved persons.:confused:Click to expand...
The definition of faith: It is the confidence in the word of another.
In this case it is the confidence in the promise of the manual of the Ford Motor Company that those instructions will work.
Second, by both experience and relationship. I know that because I have done it many times before. Experience.
--Someday it may fail. My faith won't fail, but the car may fail. That is because it is made by man, and men are fallible.
But I can put my faith in a perfect infallible God, and in his perfect Word. Both He and His Word will never fail. I can trust him implicitly and always.
--That is an illustration of faith.
Who grants to man, apart from any action of their own whatsoever, the ability to exercise faith in Him? Why is that ability not precisely a gift, in the strictest terms you place upon what is and what is not a gift?Click to expand...
Is the gift of faith a spiritual gift from God or is it not, and in what sense is faith a spiritual gift and in what sense is it NOT a spiritual gift?Click to expand...
It is the object of the faith that is important: parents, cars, or Christ for salvation.
Faith as a spiritual gift can only be given to believers.
It was the disciples (saved individuals), that prayed "Lord increase our faith."Click to expand... -
Moriah said: ↑I have made bold letters to what you say that makes you as the Calvinists. You sound like a very confused person when you say anyone can be saved if they believe, but then you say only the saved can believe. Is that not what you teach? Please explain to me better if that is not what you say.Click to expand...
How complicated is that statement? Anyone can be saved. Believe and be saved. It is that simple. If you believe you can be saved. Simple enough?
Furthermore, what do you mean the Calvinists may believe that, but you do not? Calvinists believe that they are saved before the creation of the world.Click to expand... -
DHK, before I answer, give us once again your definition of what constitutes a gift, and define what it means for something to be 'spiritual'. Thank you.
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