I admire your reasoning in this post, though I don't agree with all of it. I would call your attention to the fact that, on Mt. Sinai, Moses received only the Ten Commandments, not the entire law. God wrote the first tablets, which Moses smashed. God made him write the replacements, probably as punishment for his angry outburst, even though well deserved at first glance. But anger isn't God's way.
I stand by my first response, that Moses would write as he'd been educated to write -- on papyrus. And you're right, good discussion -- for another thread. :laugh:
The Gap Theory
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Jordan Kurecki, Jan 14, 2014.
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Jordan Kurecki Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Just a note, Our teacher is having us all read a book on one of 5 Creation Theories:
Evolution, Theistic Evolution, Planted by Aliens(lol), Gap Theory, or young earth creation.
His goal is for us to be able to either 1. Explain and present the theory or 2. Refute the theory.
He wants us to end up either with a gap theory position or young earth position.
I dont really know how dogmatic he is about the gap theory. -
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Jordan Kurecki said: ↑Just a note, Our teacher is having us all read a book on one of 5 Creation Theories:
Evolution, Theistic Evolution, Planted by Aliens(lol), Gap Theory, or young earth creation.
His goal is for us to be able to either 1. Explain and present the theory or 2. Refute the theory.
He wants us to end up either with a gap theory position or young earth position.
I dont really know how dogmatic he is about the gap theory.Click to expand... -
Inspector Javert said: ↑If you mean the sum total of all it would take to contain the first 5 chapters of the book of Genesis fitting into a 300' Barge......yes, I think there's adequate space for that. Do you maintain otherwise?Click to expand...Inspector Javert said: ↑Yes, the word "write" is related to the word "cut".........Click to expand...Inspector Javert said: ↑I don't doubt Moses was perfectly familiar with the Egyptian method of writing on papyrus with inks.....certainly he could do it.Click to expand...Inspector Javert said: ↑But Papyri and ink were luxuries which LONG post-date writing itself ...Click to expand...
The inside of the triangular stalk was cut or peeled into long strips. These strips were then laid out in two layers, one horizontal and one vertical, and pressed and dried to form a papyrus sheet. The inside of the triangular stalk was cut or peeled into long strips. These strips were then laid out in two layers, one horizontal and one vertical, and pressed and dried to form a papyrus sheet. many of these sheets were then joined end-to-end to form a roll. No glue was required; instead, the natural gum of the plant held the sheets together. A roll was usually about one foot in height and could be up to 100 feet in length. It didn't take that long. -
Jordan Kurecki said: ↑Just a note, Our teacher is having us all read a book on one of 5 Creation Theories:
Evolution, Theistic Evolution, Planted by Aliens(lol), Gap Theory, or young earth creation.
His goal is for us to be able to either 1. Explain and present the theory or 2. Refute the theory.
He wants us to end up either with a gap theory position or young earth position.
I dont really know how dogmatic he is about the gap theory.Click to expand...
Sorry, if I had the time I’d try to refresh and back up some of my thoughts I probably would, but I don’t have the time. IN the end of my studies on the subject I guess I would say I was undecided and there were more important issues to me, but I expect I could have lot of fun messing with the YECs here who would be chomping at the bit to burn me at the stake for the arguments I could come up with in support of the GT. :laugh: -
O.K....Obviously, we are going beyond the scope of topic here, and this possibly merits it's own thread. But, I'll answer some of this:
thisnumbersdisconnected said: ↑I'm referring to stone tablets being the conveyance of the 613 items of the Law, which were given to Moses just before they entered the Promised Land, and he went to the mountaintop to be taken home to his Maker, and those tablets fitting into the Ark of the CovenantClick to expand...
I have no problem with the 613 items of the law being written on Papyrii....
It's the book of Genesis which is the lynch-pin of the "Gap-Theory" argument.....Moses didn't "WRITE" Genesis either on Papyrii or tablets....he colllated and edited it....It actually implies that in the text every time it says.."These are the generations of"
etc.... That's a clue for us to figure it out...The book of Genesis reads that no less than 9 times...it's not there in order to meaninglessly repeat itself...it's telling us something.....
Namely, that that is the end of a particular account and that the particular tablet which comes AFTER it....starts with the same phraseology (that's to keep it in order) Like this in your KJV:
Gen 6:9
These are the generations of Noah
So, Noah will yack for a chapter or two...and then he passes it off to his sons and signs off 4 chapters later:
Gen 10:1
Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah,
..........an account ensues...and it ends with this.....
Gen 11:10
These are the generations of Shem:
Shem will yack for less than a chapter, and then he will sign off at the end of a tablet and introduce the next one thusly:
Gen 11:27
Now these are the generations of Terah
Terah/ Abraham will yack for about ten chapters and then Ishmael will take up the job here:
Gen 25:12
Now these are the generations of Ishmael, Abraham's son,
That would not be possibleClick to expand...
If you know those languages......
You can put a LOT of information on one of those tablets.....
A LOT.
Clay may seem rudimentary and stupid to you.....but.........clay lasts WAY longer than papyrus.........a LOT LONGER. How many extant Papyrii written by Moses do you think there are? The Original writers of Genesis were neither stupid nor crude nor idiots........they knew that clay would last a long time and they developed their writing systems to maximize space vs. accuracy.
That's why words like "of" don't exist, and they don't even have an idefinite particle like "an" (as we English speakers do)......it wastes space. The average clay tablet at no more than 17" by 17" can contain LOADS of information....LOADS...(way more than you can convey in English). They weren't stupid.
I'm sorry, but there is no basis for that statement. The preposition is used to show direction, location, time, or to introduce an object. For example, "I put my wallet ON the table." Another example, "I went TO the store." When the ancient Hebrews wrote the word "in," it referenced not only location, but the nature of that location. They would never have written "in" but rather "on" if the original writings had been "on" a clay tablet. Instead, they wrote "in The Book of Law" to indicate it was found in the scrolls that made up the Book of Law.Click to expand...
I think you are speaking from no knowledge of the language itself or how it works but rather from assumption.
You are putting WAY TOO much stock in the nature of Hebrew Prepositions. They aren't very particular at all.
There is no reason, or evidence, to believe that he returned to the crude Sumerian method of writing on wet clayClick to expand...
And it isn't "CRUDE"....it has it's benefits...It lasts longer......and the Hebrew people didn't speak COPTIC.......they spoke Hebrew.
He was writing to them........not Egyptians.
You show me how many copies of your brilliant "non-crude" papyri you have......and I will (literally) show you 60,000 Ugaritic Ninevite and Sumerian tablets which exist to this day.......They are all in the British Museum of Natural History....
Clay lasts, Papyrus doesn't. That's why said museum has WAY more info about Ninevah from original writings than they do about Egypt.
But, the Egyptians weren't stupid either....they also wrote their history in clay . But it's largely in pottery shards etc and not scrolls. They didn't ditch the practice, they just kept the long term info encased in clay and not paper.
or, more ludicrous, to believe he chiseled anything onto hard clayClick to expand...
soft clay is easy to mark in..........it hardens though.....and lasts forever.
You are simply being insulting and rude. This does not become you at all.
given he had been educated in the preparation and use of papyrus, the making and application of ink,Click to expand...
the proper method of making a stylus, etc.Click to expand...
On the contrary, the preparation and use of papyrus in that part of the world was quite common. The papyrus plant is a reed that grows in marshy areas around the Nile river. In ancient Egypt, the wild plant was used for a variety of uses, and specially cultivated papyrus, grown on plantations, was used to make the writing material.Click to expand...
I KNOW everything you said in this diatribe. Did I deny this????
I know about that reed, and where it grows...I'm telling you two things:
1.) It didn't grow in the wilderness of Zin where Moses spent 40 years with the Israelites.......duh :sleep:
2.) Moses didn't "WRITE" the book of Genesis to begin with AT ALL!........
If he had you would have a point in impressing us with what you learned from spending 45 mins. paying attention to the History Channel. Such as this pablum:
The inside of the triangular stalk was cut or peeled into long strips. These strips were then laid out in two layers, one horizontal and one vertical, and pressed and dried to form a papyrus sheet. The inside of the triangular stalk was cut or peeled into long strips. These strips were then laid out in two layers, one horizontal and one vertical, and pressed and dried to form a papyrus sheet. many of these sheets were then joined end-to-end to form a roll. No glue was required; instead, the natural gum of the plant held the sheets together. A roll was usually about one foot in height and could be up to 100 feet in length. It didn't take that long.Click to expand...
I also dedicated my life to spending 60 mins. watching one "Modern Marvels" on the History Channel......
But Moses didn't "WRITE" Genesis..............
He "Wrote" the 613 codices of the "Law" you insist on.
If you are hard-core about maintaining the truth of a Genesis account passed down in grass....you have nothing to stand on.
Genesis, God codified in CLAY.............Moses could write the rest of the Pentateuch 2,000 years later on Papyri originally without a problem. I don't have a problem with that.Click to expand... -
Jordan Kurecki Well-Known MemberSite Supporterquantumfaith said: ↑Is this an online class? An institutional class? Is this class an OT survey?Click to expand...
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Jordan Kurecki Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
And please lets focus on the OP.
Enough of this clay tablets argument. -
Jordan Kurecki said: ↑And please lets focus on the OP.
Enough of this clay tablets argument.Click to expand...
IJ, PM me if you want to continue this, or we should start another thread. No, I'm not making it up. I've studied Hebrew, though not to the extent I've studied Greek, but the "dearth" of reference you infer isn't factual relative to the ancient Hebrew language. Thanks, and God bless. -
thisnumbersdisconnected said: ↑I agree.
IJ, PM me if you want to continue this, or we should start another thread. No, I'm not making it up. I've studied Hebrew, though not to the extent I've studied Greek, but the "dearth" of reference you infer isn't factual relative to the ancient Hebrew language. Thanks, and God bless.Click to expand...
the "Gap Theory" is a load of garbage.
It's (what did you say)
The only doctrine found only in "white"??? or something"
:laugh:Yes...
I agree with you about 95% of the time. So, I hate disagreeing with you on this one thing. But, it's for anutter day. As far as the O.P....
You're right.
The Bible teaches nothing whatsoever akin to a "Gap Theory". ONLY really OOOLLLDD people even believe it anymore. There's practically no one under the age of 60 who even dreams of it anymore.
That doctrine will literally "DIE" along with the senile old coots who teach it. They have few to no converts in any Bible-believers under the age of 110. It will cease to even be acknowledged within 50years....thank God!!! :jesus::godisgood: -
Inspector Javert said: ↑It's (what did you say)
The only doctrine found only in "white"??? or something"Click to expand...Inspector Javert said: ↑:laugh:Yes...Click to expand...Inspector Javert said: ↑I agree with you about 95% of the time. So, I hate disagreeing with you on this one thing. But, it's for anutter day.Click to expand... -
Inspector Javert said: ↑You're right about at minimum one thing............
the "Gap Theory" is a load of garbage.
It's (what did you say)
The only doctrine found only in "white"??? or something"
:laugh:Yes...
I agree with you about 95% of the time. So, I hate disagreeing with you on this one thing. But, it's for anutter day. As far as the O.P....
You're right.
The Bible teaches nothing whatsoever akin to a "Gap Theory". ONLY really OOOLLLDD people even believe it anymore. There's practically no one under the age of 60 who even dreams of it anymore.
That doctrine will literally "DIE" along with the senile old coots who teach it. They have few to no converts in any Bible-believers under the age of 110. It will cease to even be acknowledged within 50years....thank God!!! :jesus::godisgood:Click to expand... -
Another poster earlier suggested that you run from such a class. I suggest just the opposite. I think you should read scholarly (theist) authors on a wide range of ideas on this idea and other ideas.
IMO, a professor should not suggest to you where he expects you to land on the issue, rather he should encourage you to study and be informed on a multitude of different positions.
I might suggest the popular level book:
Origins Christian perspective on Creation, Evolution and Intelligent Design
Debra and Loren Haarsma (Reformed in Theology) -
thisnumbersdisconnected said: ↑No, I'm not making it up.Click to expand...
I didn't mean that the way it probably looked.
Sorry about that B.T.W. :(
God Bless :wavey: -
Gen 2:1
Chapter 2
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2:4
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, [in the day]that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,
Gen 1:1-5
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light:and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good:and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And [God called the light Day], and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were [the first day].
Nope, no sign of a gap here.
The first day, was the first day.
The first day was the beginning.
He created both heavens and earth, on the first day.
He called it "day"
Day
Not "Age".
Not Millenium.
Day. -
Mr. Kurecki
Studying both sides of an issue is an excellent way to learn about it. If one doesn't understand the background and information upon which the other 'side' relies, one will never understand what one believes.
Typically, one only reads the information which agrees with one's position - a rather good way to remain totally ignorant of half the issue. However, looking at the other side is scary; perhaps those things one thought aren't true. Then what?
Then what indeed? What can displace God from His position? Nor can one learn anything that will cause God to cease loving. The God we serve does not encourage ignorance. -
Archie the Preacher said: ↑Studying both sides of an issue is an excellent way to learn about it. If one doesn't understand the background and information upon which the other 'side' relies, one will never understand what one believes.
Typically, one only reads the information which agrees with one's position - a rather good way to remain totally ignorant of half the issue. However, looking at the other side is scary; perhaps those things one thought aren't true. Then what?
Then what indeed? What can displace God from His position? Nor can one learn anything that will cause God to cease loving. The God we serve does not encourage ignorance.Click to expand... -
Aaron said: ↑There is absolutely nothing in the narrative that would even suggest a gap.Click to expand...
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Yeshua1 said: ↑So where would you fit int he dall of satan, and rebellion in heaven, as he fell before Adam and Eve fell!Click to expand...
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