The Glorious "Gospel of Election"

Can God say "elect" and not mean all of the elect?

 

The Bible says that Jesus died for all men.
1 John 2:1
Luke 19:10
2 Corinthians 5:14-15
Hebrews 2:9

His blood can wash away anyone's sin.
John 1:29
1 John 2:1-2

The gospel is for all men.
Mark 16:15-16
Romans 1:16

 

I'm glad you put the second proposition there , otherwise you'd be excluding the poor womenfolk !

 

Sorry, I find no Scripture that says this, as I already pointed out.

In our mortal bodies, in one sense, waiting? Yes.

Ed

 

I am saved in spite of myself and because God poured out His grace upon me. Nothing in me could have drawn me to God. Nothing in me desired the truth of God. Nothing in me brought me to a knowledge of the truth of Jesus Christ. There is nothing in me that keeps me saved. It was/is all of God.

peace to you:praying:

 

These verses have to do with Christ atonement. We can talk about that in another thread if you wish to start one.

All Calvinist would agree. This point will support Calvinism more then free-willism.

 

give me a verse that would make you ask this.

 

He poured His grace out on EVERYONE (note PK's citations) with partiality to NONE. Maybe everyone else that does NOTHING is saved as well, eh?

Maybe NO ONE can "reach out and, perchance, feel Him though He not not far from ANY of us."

Like Adrian Rogers used to say, "If you can have something and not know it, you could lose it and not even miss it." He's talking about "election," jd. You didn't even know you were "elect" until --- what? Did you ever "miss it" all those years before you were saved? When you had it and didn't know it?

skypair

 

First of all, you stated earlier that you didn't recieve God's grace until YOU decided with your own "free-will" to come to Christ. Are you now saying that all men come to Christ? That must be what you are saying since you said God poured out His grace on all men, and that you can only recieve God's grace when YOU exercise your "free-will" to do so. Which is it, skypair? Are all men saved, and therefore recieve God's grace?

Secondly, Jesus said "My sheep hear my voice" "I call them by name" "they follow Me". To the pharisee he said "you do not believe because you are not My Sheep".

I exegeted those passages of scripture for you once, demonstrating the meaning from the Greek, and you said you couldn't argue with what it meant. And yet, you still refuse to accept what it means because it doesn't fit what you want to believe.

Until after I was saved and began to deligently study scripture. Holy Spirit opened my eyes to see the truth of God's Word. And what I learned from scripture was exactly consistent with what I had experienced before and during salvation. Salvation is completely a work of Almighty God, a gift of His grace. I understood "election" long before I ever heard the name "Calvin".

You don't have to understand "election" to be saved. I appreciate the gift of God's grace, and His call to service, much better now that I understand God's purpose in "election".

peace to you:praying:

 

You are not "sheep" until you are "born again" and of course we hear His voice.

Did you know you were "lost" before you found out you were the "elect"? If you knew you were "lost", did you try to do anything about it or just accept the fact you were going to hell??
BBob,

BBob,

 

Grace, to you, has the specific meaning of "salvation," is that correct? Not to me. Grace, to me, means "giving us what we don't deserve" -- UNMERITED favor. That overlaps with but does not exclusively mean "salvation."

Thus, the grace God gave for all of us is His Son. By Him, ALL will be resurrected to a new body. That's just another thing we don't deserve yet ALL will get -- a physical hearing in His physical, glorified presence.

And yet even they were not "frozen" into that destiny. Readwhere, shortly after they had rejected Him and He began to speak in parables, many Pharisees believed but would not speak out for fear of being thrown out of the synagogue. You seem to be presuming that there are no more sheep coming in during the various generations, jd -- like there is no "Gate" to come through. Like the "sheep" who are in there and hear never were anywhere else. Hmm.

So "election" is synonymous with salvation? How about this --- "election" is the outworking of salvation so far as the believer's experience of salvation? Does that seem right? So far as you can know from experience, election is manifested through your salvation, not salvation through your election, right?

skypair

 

No Bob, the sheep hear His voice and THEN follow Him. We are born again by the will of Holy Spirit, not our own.

I knew I was lost when Holy Spirit convicted me of the truth of that fact. And prior to that, I thought I was a pretty good person, and therefore "saved";

I tried to treat everyone well, most of the time. I didn't cheat on my wife. I didn't steal...and so on. I had "prayed the prayer" many times, and had been "baptized" by Pentecostals, Baptists, Church of Christ, Church of God and probably others that I don't remember.

I can remember telling someone that I believed God was a righteous judge and would weigh the good with the bad, and I would make it to heaven based on how good I had been. I thought I was doing what needed to be done.

Like I said, I discovered the truth of "election" after I was saved and begin to read scripture deligently.

peace to you:praying:

 

NO. Grace means unmerited favor. In scripture, it is used to refer to salvific grace toward an unbeliever and also enabling grace toward a believer.

Tell me this, skypair. If you believe "foreknowledge" means that God looked into the future and saw who would believe, and then, based on that information "elected" them to salvation, how can that be said to be "unmerited favor"?

If God is responding to something men do in His "election" to salvation, then that must mean they merited His favor. God "chose" based on what they did, and God did not chose others because they did not do what the first group had done. Is that right?

How can that be "unmerited favor"?

peace to you:praying:

 

I knew I was lost and that hell would be my home if I never repented. Does that mean that I am misinformed about my salvation??

Its hard to believe that murderers are his sheep, while they are still murderers. That would mean Paul was His sheep, while consenting to Stevens death and having Christians killed. Don't think I ever read where the sheep were following the Devil and doing the devil's will.

What if I believe that God does not have to look into the future to see what we will do, but that God looks and sees all at once. The same time He is enrolling our name in the Lamb's Book of Life, He also sees us believe or disbelieve.

BBob,

 

I see your point and agree. The reason I did not go into the fact of the reason for the appointment was that I was focusing mainly on the fact that they were appointed of God. But, I am not going further with this because it steered in another direction than intended.

 

I knew those things too, but not until Holy Spirit convicted me of the truth of my condition before God.

Was Paul a murderer on the road to Damascus? He was on his way to do just that, wasn't he? Did Paul do something to "clean himself up" from all that murdering he had done, prior to our Lord appearing to him? I don't see it in scripture. Paul understood God's grace as well, or better, than anyone. He had persecuted Christ, Himself, in persecuting His church. That knowledge stayed with him, and humbled him, and motivated him to service.

Doesn't Paul tell us, years later, "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost." (I Tim.1:15) Notice the present tense verb, "I am foremost". Not, "I was foremost".

It doesn't change anything, Bob, if you believe God based His decision to "elect" people to salvation based on something they did/will do.

If God is responding to something man is doing/going to do, in the granting of Grace, and others do not recieve grace because they did not do the thing the first group did, then that cannot rightly be called "unmerited favor".

Can you explain how such a thing can be called "unmerited favor"?

They "merit" God's grace based on what they did. And, therefore, "grace" cannot rightly be called "grace" (unmerited favor). We must find a new definition for grace. Perhaps "merited mercy" would be more appropriate?

peace to you:praying:

 

Titus 2:
1: But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:
2: That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.
3: The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4: That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5: To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
6: Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.
7: In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
8: Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.
9: Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again;
10: Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
11: For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12: Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13: Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14: Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

The Grace is not the problem. It is the lack of "faith" and the "love of God" that is the problem.IMO

1Cr 13:2And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.


1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Here we see a man could have the "Grace" and could have "all faith", but if he does not have the "Love God", he is nothing.

 

canadyjd;
May I ask you a question.
Why were the commandments given?

Were not the "elect" already pre-programmed to keep all the Commandments, at a certain time?

BBob,

 

WHAT? Not sure what you are talking about. I know this is to someone else, but I need to ask something.

Please give me a verse that shows people are pre-programmed for anything.

 

Well, I need you to answer me a question first.

Can the "elect" be lost and go to hell, if not why?

Do the "elect" live a Christian life. Who is their leader God or Satan?

Hbr 10:39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Mar 10:17¶And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

Mar 10:19Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

Seem Jesus thought that those who are saved do the above. I suspect, you believe the elect are saved.

Your words James:

BBob,