BBob, :praying:
The Glorious "Gospel of Election"
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by skypair, Dec 26, 2007.
Page 9 of 13
-
-
BBob, -
But the main thing is that I nor anyone was elected to salvation. Just as when it is said that Israel was elected, it was not to salvation but to God's purpose. Likewise, we church are elected to make Israel jealous that they might come back to God. They know that, though God has preserved them all these years, that He has not had a relationship with them spiritually.
I know that you alone did not decide that that woman you are married to would be your wife, did you. She has pretty much the same choice to make as you did, right? Did y'all plan the honeymoon together before there was even a proposal of marriage "on the table?"
I doubt it. Here's why --- the honeymoon, your life togther, etc. is what you "elect" each other to. But it is the choice of one another that gets you into talking and planning those other things called you "election" by God.
You have always objected to the marriage analogy, But the Bible says that the man is the "savior of [his wife's] body." And in that analogy, doesn't the woman have a choice to make regarding their future relationship too?
skypair -
I would ask you to reconsider from your experiences whether it was YOU that was convicted and whether it was YOU that changed your mind. I'm not saying that changing your mind saved you -- simply asking what was your feeling like that you think now that the Spirit and not you made the decision? Cause you KNOW a decision is required at some point, right?
As to "unmerited favor" --- I bring everything I have to the relationship though I know it is nothing. God brings everything He has and it IS everything that He knows I need.
skypair -
peace to you:praying: -
Bob and skypair:
You both continue to ignore my basic question. I'll try one more time, and then I'll give up.
If God responds to what people do in the granting of "election unto salvation", how can that be considered "unmerited favor" or Grace?
Bob, I know you said something about it being a general, instead of a specific, election. That still doesn't address the question, because God is still responding to what the people do.
How can that rightly be called "unmerited favor" when they are made "elect" based on what they do, and others are not "elect" because they didn't "do" what the first group did?
Don't they earn their standing before God based on what they do?
peace to you:praying: -
Did Adam have a choice and when did God remake man?
It was Adam that brought death, How could that be a Sovereign God, in your definition of Sovereign??
I do not believe it takes away form God Sovereignity to believe on not to believe when God in His Sovereignity made man subject to vanity but not willing. "that means God made man to choose good or evil", and remained sovereign. Why does scripture say to cease to do evil and learn to do good, if you are elected to do that, why tell us to do it. Its going to happen anyway if we are elected to do it before the foundation of the world.
You still have not given me a scripture on the unmerited Grace, when the Grace of God hath appeared unto all men.
Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom and departing from evil is understanding. In other words a man must depart from His evil ways to have the understanding of God.
If salvation is "free" to those who believe, believing does not bring salvation, it is "free". We could believe all we want and not have salvation but God in His sovereignity freely gives salvation to those who believe. In other words you say He freely gives it to the "elect". What is the difference if He freely gives salvation to those who believe. The world is full of those who believe and those who do not, even if there was not Salvation, but God in His Sovereignity chose to give salvation to those who believe. Because they believe, God don't have to give them anything, but He does, as you say He gives it to the "elect".
You say and believe if I am not wrong, that God changes the heart of the "elect". They are the "elect" first is why God changes their heart, and does not lose His sovereignity. Why is it different to change the heart of a believer, to a heart of flesh, instead of stone, if the world is full of believers and unbelievers?
BBob, -
skypair -
Like I said, I give up trying to communicate with you two.
peace to you:praying: -
But this "grace" thing came along with the NT. God doesn't look at man in granting grace/His Spirit. This is why no OT saint was indwelt by Him but instead, He dwelt in their temple/tabernacles then. God looks at us through Jesus -- not our work but His -- in granting grace.
Now obviously there is a word for grace in the OT (41 mentions) but none with this meaning of it that applies to the "age" or "dispensation of grace."
The kingdom of heaven parables show this very vividly! On earth, there are believers and "hangers on" religiously. One of the best illustrations is the parable of the 10 virgins. All were prospective "brides" but only 5 were truly believers. Yet they were all "elect" according to the kingdom.
Look at the laborers -- 6 groups "elected" throughout the day (Mt 20) yet the last were brought in and paid first. Why? All were "elect" unto the purpose of work but the last -- the church -- had been elect to a different purpose/destiny for awhile.
skypair
Don't they earn their standing before God based on what they do?
peace to you:praying:[/QUOTE] -
Here's my 2 cents...probably unwanted ;)
1. If election is indeed referring to the salvation of man's spirit, then God elected some to be condemned for eternity-to not come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.
2. This cannot be the case. What did God send Jesus for? To take away the sins of the world, right? To be the Savior of all man, correct? Your ideas of election thwart the will of God. Scripture says that the word of God does not return void and that it will accomplish everything that it is sent to do. Who is the word? John tells us that the Word is Christ. What was Christ sent to do again?
So you see, if election is applied to the salvation of man's spirit, then scripture in the previous instance cannot be fulfilled. -
What part of election do you not believe? Shall we remove those sections from the Bible? -
I'm not saying that I don't believe in election. I'm saying that I don't believe that it has been accurately interpreted in this thread.
All I'm trying to do is to get you guys to think outside of the box. Be open-minded!!!
I'm opting out early because I know I will be argued even if I present valid scripture to prove myself. -
-
You are right regarding "election" --- God elected us to His purposes AFTER He foreknew which of us would receive Christ.
Those who don't receive Christ are left to their own purposes and destiny. Sadly, it is exactly the way they want it though NOT what God wants for them.
skypair -
-
Foreknowledge has nothing to do with the atoning work of Christ, God chose a people to be redeemed in Christ. His choice in this does not mean that He chose others to be eternally lost. They are left in their condition, having no desire for any thing of God and especially not of Christ.
All for whom Christ has died shall be eternally saved, not one will be found lacking or missing, Christ's work did not, has not, will not and cannot fail.
Else, we only make it to heaven by one of two things, that which is 'good' in us to cause us to exert a 'right' choice, or that of being overlooked by Satan, thereby making our redemption to be through the mercy of that father of lies.
bro. Dallas:wavey: -
Luther probably hit the epitome this contradiction of works with belief. He believed "that God had promised peace to the humble." Duh! Salvation is conditional on humility -- which is a pretty difficult thing to come by bbut doubtless a "work" and condition, in Luther's mind, of salvation.
But no -- the Bible says God chose people to salvation "in" Christ or "through" Christ. Christ was the "key" to His choosing/electing them. That makes salvation/election "on account of Christ" rather than "in spite of Christ."
skypair -
I can't see how election could apply to the initial salvation of a man. Could election not apply to anything else? I cannot get past the contradictions in scripture if election does truly apply to spiritual salvation.
God sends His Son to be the savior of the whole world, yet in sending Him knows that only an elect few would believe? NO...that's contradictory. God did indeed send His Son to be the Savior of the whole world...no stipulations added...One day, hopefully soon, God the Father will see the work of His Son fulfilled as Philippians 2 tells us "9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 and that every tongue should confess Is. 45.23 that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
This is yet future. Can you see my point? God would not send His Son to die for the whole world if indeed the whole world would not come to a saving knowledge of Him at some time.
And we know by Romans 10:9 that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. -
1) Election has to do with something other that salvation itself. True. It has to do with the purpose given us by God through our salvation. Israel was saved out of Egypt and given a purpose/election -- to enter into the Promised Land. Same purpose/election for which God earlier saved Abram -- to make a nation and a people. But God first had to turn these to believe on Himself by faith.
2) I see you saying that all will be saved. No, all will confess, but for most, it will be ineffectual coming AFTER death. However, there are some "alls" we must acknowledge -- Christ died for ALL sins so that ALL will receive new bodies when ALL appear at their respective judgments.
skypair
Page 9 of 13