The Great God and Saviour of us Jesus Christ

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SavedByGrace, Jun 24, 2021.

  1. MB Well-Known Member

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    Dementia is common in this latter part of your life.
    MB
     
  2. Van Well-Known Member
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    The position of Dr. Wallace is presented in English. You can run, but you cannot hide.
     
  3. SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    and this is from Dr Marvin Vincent

    "Of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ (τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ). For Jesus Christ rend. Christ Jesus. Μέγας great with God, N. T.o, but often in LXX. According to A.V. two persons are indicated, God and Christ. Rev. with others rend. of our great God and Saviour Christ Jesus, thus indicating one person, and asserting the deity of Christ. I adopt the latter, although the arguments and authorities in favour of the two renderings are very evenly balanced. For one person are urged: 1. That the two appellations θεὸς and σωτήρ are included under a single article. 2. That σωτήρ with ἡμῶν, where there are two appellatives, has the article in every case, except 1 Tim. 1:1; and that therefore its omission here indicates that it is taken with θεοῦ under the regimen of τοῦ. 3. That ὃς in ver. 14 is singular and refers to Christ, indicating that only one person is spoken of in ver. 13. 4. The analogy of 2 Pet. 1:1, 11; 3:18. 5. The declarations concerning Christ in Col. 1:15; 2 Th. 1:7; 1 Pet. 4:13; Col. 2:9. For two persons are urged: 1. The fact that θεὸς is never found connected directly with Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς as an attribute. 2. The frequency with which God and Christ are presented in the N. T. as distinct from each other, as having a common relation to men in the economy of grace, makes it probable that the same kind of union is intended here, and not a presentation of Christ as God. 3. The evident reference of θεοῦ in ver. 11 to God the Father. 4. The analogy of 2 Th. 1:12." (Word studies in the New Testament)
     
  4. SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    out of your depth! :eek: Prove me wrong from the Greek, which is what matters here!
     
  5. Van Well-Known Member
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    Good grief, this post actually supports Dr. Wallace, not KJVO.
     
  6. Van Well-Known Member
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    You are now attempting to hide from the truth Dr. Wallace presented in English. Next you want me to prove you wrong in Greek rather than you show Dr. Wallace is wrong about Titus 2:13 in English. Go figure folks, go figure...
     
  7. SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    In Revelation 11:15, it reads, "Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”. The words, "he shall reign" are one word in the Greek, "βασιλεύσει", which is in the singular number, used here for the JOINT REIGN of BOTH "our Lord" and "His Christ". Likewise in 22:1, it says, "the Throne (θρόνου) of God and the Lamb", again, in the singular, for JOINT REIGN. And in verse 3, " And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him" "shall serve HIM", in the singular, "αὐτῷ", meaning the Throne (Reign) of "God" and "the Lamb" are one and the same. JOINT!
     
  8. 37818 Well-Known Member

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    It, the millennial reign, does not fit you understanding of it in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28.
     
  9. SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    can you read? "although the arguments and authorities in favour of the two renderings are very evenly balanced", shows that BOTH readings are possible from the Greek!
     
  10. SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    see # 47
     
  11. SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    can we please keep this to the OP
     
  12. Van Well-Known Member
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    The author of the article supports Dr. Wallace's position.
     
  13. SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    yes I know that, I was showing that there are TWO, rather THREE, as I have shown in the OP, readings for Titus 2:13, each one based on the Greek of the text!
     
  14. Van Well-Known Member
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    Apparently this "expert" leans toward KJVO arguments, the fiction that there are no errors in the KJV. Should have known...
     
  15. MB Well-Known Member

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    Where do you believe these Variants come from?Is it men who are attempting to change the word to there particular preference?, Or is it Satanic influence, Maybe just men who wish to be Christian but they can't leave there sinful lives behind .So they bring there sin in to there Salvation so they can have both.
    MB
     
  16. Van Well-Known Member
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    Returning to topic, the deity of Christ is taught by Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1 if properly translated according to the Granville Sharpe rule. Other verses also support the deity of Christ.

    Acts 20:28; As the Son of God, Christ is divine.
    Eph 5:5; Here the kingdom of heaven is clearly the domain of both Christ and God.
    2 Thess 1:12; our God and Lord Jesus Christ
    1 Tim 5:21; this puts God and Christ on equal footing
    2 Tim 4:1; Another verse presenting equal footing
    Jude 4, Our only Master and Lord puts Christ equal to the highest authority
     
  17. SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    this "rule" is NOT without exceptions, and therefore cannot be used to show a conclusion from the Greek grammar alone.

    see # 15
     
  18. MB Well-Known Member

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    Do you have a doctorate.
    MB
     
  19. Van Well-Known Member
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    Note the poster ignores Titus and 2 Peter as the only ones without exception.
     
  20. SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    BA born again!